Dan Kan - Co-founder Cruise Automation - Is the problem you are working on hard enough to keep you interested?

Hello and welcome to Wiley on Business a podcast where we explore how individuals and companies make dramatic breakthroughs and transform their businesses from a job to an enterprise with real value by enabling others to realize their full potential by being crystal clear on the vision of the business. My name is Jake Wiley, and over my nearly two decades of business experience and client service owning a business as well as being a CFO, I've had the opportunity to see the difference between slugging it out to stay above water and exponential growth. On this podcast, I interview amazing leaders who have figured it out to get their perspectives on how they do it, and share it with you. Dan Kohn is a serial entrepreneur and co founder of cruise automation, which was acquired by General Motors for a billion dollars in 2016, only three years after its founding, prior to cruise, Dan founded several companies, including exact an on demand Aaron running service, which he sold in 2014. To handy, which is now the clear leader in the space. Dan has such an amazing story to tell. And I'm really excited about this conversation. So let's jump right in. Dan, thanks so much for being here today. If you wouldn't mind, why don't you give us a little bit of background on who you are?

Yeah, thanks for having me on. So my name is Dan Kan. I am currently the Chief Product officer and co founder of a company called cruise. We build self driving cars, and in 2016, were acquired by General Motors. Before that, I have been just working in tech, as an entrepreneur, since I graduated from college, so yeah, that's the short story,

Dan I think your story is remarkable, really interested to kind of dig into some of the details here. You know, the speed at which you went from a founding the company to crews being acquired by GM, but that was a whirlwind. But let's, let's go back in time, let's talk about building the right team. Like how much of your success in the success of crews? do you attribute to having the right people in being really reliant on other people to do what they're really good at?

That's a really interesting question. And I think, you know, to say it bluntly, I wouldn't be where I am today without the people around me. And that's both, you know, the people who have supported me, like my family and my brother, both my brothers actually, and, and kind of more importantly, the people I've gotten to work with, I think, what's really interesting is, when we set out to build Cruise, we didn't think it would take this long, or this many people or this many resources. But we uncovered a lot of really hard problems in the process. And what we learned is, you know, obviously, it's going to take a lot of people to build this technology. Now we're over almost 1800 people working on this. So I wouldn't be where we are without them. And I owe all my success to the team. Really,

I think you brought up a really interesting point there that might dive in a little bit more on is that you didn't think it was going to take as many people to get there. And that's a that's an interesting dynamic, when you think about probably where you started and your vision for the business. And now you're managing 1800 people. that's a that's a big shift. Was there? Was there a point where like, you just realized you had to kind of get that, you know, change your mindset completely. And it's gonna take a lot of, we've got to hire a lot of people, how do we manage that? Or is that just kind of that just naturally, I

think there wasn't any one particular point where we're like, oh, man, this is this is really going to take a lot of people, we always knew, it was a really hard problem. And as we were building, we kept uncovering more hard problems to solve. And the good thing is, we always knew how to solve them. It just took time and resources and whatnot. And the other the other great thing about that was, we knew that these problems were problems that other companies had to solve as well. And so no one was like getting a leg up on us throughout the journey. But, you know, up until we require, we were 40 people, and we were working in a garage space. And, you know, we had ideas that it was just around the corner. And as we were building, we realized, look, if we really want to build a truly safe system, there's a lot of other things that have to get that have to go into that validation and other things like that, that you just need. You need people to work on them. You need time you need miles, you need a plan. That's more than just Hey, the car is gonna drive straight. even try not to hit things. And that's all come together in the last couple of years, as we've as we've really dug into the problem.

Very cool. I guess is there any, like specific example, I guess, in your journey, where you realize you really needed to relinquish some of your control and in leverage other people that kind of helped set? What does become emotion.

I don't know that there's a particular point inside of Cruise that I kind of said, Hey, you know, I need to get other people on board to do this. And part of that is because, as the non technical co founder, right, the idea and, and, and, you know, all the technical depth was already out of my control, right, I was I was there to help facilitate, make people more efficient, hire people in run the company, but the actual technical product, and largely the safety case, I had always, we'd always put in other people's hands, or I'd always put in other people's hands. For me, though, one of the kind of most salient moments of my career where I realized, look, I got to trust people a little bit more, was actually at my, my previous startup. And this was a lesson my brother taught me where we had a person working with us on the operations case, and I can't remember what it was about. But, you know, he had a plan for doing something. And he brought it to me and was like, Hey, here's the plan. And I, I didn't react well, right. I kind of was like, oh, what about this? What about this? And, you know, I think he got a little discouraged. And I was kind of like, what's going on? Like, why is our plan not more thorough, or whatnot, from my perspective, my brother called me and it was like, Hey, you know, you can either do this yourself, or you can have him do it. But the way you're doing it right now is never gonna work for either of you. And I thought it was a really, like, that's stuck with me, throughout my career now. And it really showed me like, Look, we're not ever going to be able to do everything, right. If you want to do something great, it takes people to do it. And the best thing you can do is, hire good people can get out of their way. And you know, that person I still work with today, right at my new company. So really great lesson. And I think that's kind of where I started to think about how to really build stuff, as a team.

And there's a real key message there. On the show, we talked about vision, what it really means to be an entrepreneur is the guy that carries the vision, and not being an operator, the one that's in the weeds, putting his hands on every single thing, because you can never really grow like you just you're just totally limited there. And it sounds like you really had a moment in your career where you kind of learned the importance of that. But did you struggle with that? Was it something that you're able to basically just take that lesson and move forward? Or, you know, to take iterations really curious to hear what you say?

Well, I think it's, you know, it wasn't that easy, right? It wasn't an overnight like, Oh, hey, I'm gonna I'm just focused on vision. And part of that was, I was still needed on the operations side, it was just, you know, stop micromanaging these people around you who you're hiring, so that you can, you know, 10x your output right through them. And it's only and, in, I guess, as someone who, you know, got in the weeds, it's wasn't until, you know, recently as we've, we've brought on a lot more people where I don't actually get to do the fun stuff anymore. Right? I do have to be. And it's not to say the vision isn't fun, but, you know, the guy who's, you know, managing the team, trying to make sure that the projects are right, not actually doing the work around the projects, and how those, you know, really thinking about how those all connect together versus getting in the weeds and saying, Hey, you know, our apps need to look like this. And, you know, this is why and here's the research and other things behind that. So I don't think anyone, especially, you know, people who come through the entrepreneurship side, you know, want to be out of the weeds, it's just kind of like the mentality is like, get it done, figure out the best way and the fastest way to do it. But over time, as cruises evolved, that's just been the highest leverage thing for me to do. And so if I think about how I can impact the company in the best way possible, it's not actually to get into the weeds and do those things. Those those Angular pass, it's to encourage and support the team on what they're doing. So that, you know, they can, they can be as effective as possible.

Dan, you know, you're the first person that's ever said that as an entrepreneur, as you kind of move up the food chain, you don't get to do the fun stuff anymore. And I find that really interesting is you think about the growth and the evolution of a business. And a lot of times when you start off like your hands on, you're really tactical, and you're touching everything, and like you're crossing things off the list. And you can see the progress you're making. Now, you know, the flip side is when you're carrying a vision, and you're trying to get from here to the end goal, it can seem like a long time, or nothing's really happening. And that's just a shift that you've got to make. And you've got to you've got to figure that out somewhere along the way. But it was a really, really interesting point. I appreciate that.

Yeah. I mean, don't get me wrong, right, like fun. It might be fun for some people, right? It's just for me, I managing people, is not necessarily the most fun thing for me, right? I do it, I do enjoy it. Now, I think I've kind of taken a different approach to how I do it, which is I think helped. But I think I get a lot of satisfaction out of knowing that that is the highest leverage thing for me to do. And that that is what will help us as a company be successful.

And I think this point is just really spot on. And it's so analogous to just life in general. Anytime you go through some sort of transition, right, you're moving up in the world, you're you're growing personally, there's a period of being really uncomfortable. And you just got to get through it. And that's where a lot of us fail, right is that we get to that point where we're uncomfortable. And then we kind of pull back and what's what we know and what we've done before. But I mean, it's so analogous to eating the right foods, working out like all of these things, they're tough. First, and then eventually, like, if you can get through the tough part, it works out. But I do think people aspire to get promoted or kind of move to the next level, because they think it's gonna be so much better. But they don't really think about the the part where it's difficult in the middle.

I think you're right, right, I think everyone aspires to be the boss, because they think it can, you know, life will get easier. Yeah. And I think the best leaders are always looking for what they're doing wrong, so that they can adapt and change and make people around them better. And so, you know, whether that's understanding, look, I've got to get out of an IC role, or, you know, figuring out other ways to improve the company, I do think you, you shouldn't stop learning. And I always go back to the fact that your competition is almost certainly not going to stop learning. And so you're at a competitive disadvantage. If you just sit back, relax,

then you're so right there, you really can't take your foot off the gas because your competition isn't. And it's a really competitive market out there. But let's, let's talk about a time where you got it, right.

I mean, I think most recently, actually, we brought on a VP of product instead of Cruz, who, you know, has been amazing, right? And has helped, you know, build up the team, and then the processes and, you know, as brought a lot of excitement to the org. In the past, you know, I was filling that position. And I think getting out of the way and allowing someone who is better at kind of the, the growth stage of where we're at, and on the product side is probably the most recent kind of example. But a lot of my career, I've always kind of done this, start doing something and then try and find someone who's better at that than I am. You know, when when we started with Cruise, I was in charge of recruiting and comms and finance and, you know, marketing and basically every function inside of a company and over time, we've hired leaders who can come in. And, for me, I've always looked at it as Okay, these other professionals, I was just kind of like filling in, and now we've got the professionals here. And at times it's been hard because I found myself with a reduced role, right? I've given these things to other people. And I've had to come to terms with with that right as that's the best thing for crews. And here's another area where I can move on to. And that area now is the product.

And it's such a great point. I've had that same experience personally happened to me several times where basically I trained somebody to take over my job. And I, for some reason, I've always wanted that, you know, as a leader, you know, personally, I've always said, Well, let me see if I can get out of the way and like, figure out like what somebody else is capable of doing. And then my hope is, it'll just continue to open up opportunities for me. But yeah, there's points in time there where it's scary, because you know, you're bringing somebody up, and you're basically eating away at your own job, right, what you do every day. So what's next? But what I found with without question, and it's still a nerve racking experience is that it always works out better, right? Something amazing always comes out the other side of it. Sometimes it's a little painful. Sometimes it's not, but the end result is always been amazing.

Yep. There's rarely a case that I think in your listeners might correct me on this or whatnot. But there's rarely a case in my mind where you work yourself out of a job, right? There's always something else to be done. There's always new projects, there's always new stuff, and bringing smart people on how allows you to do those things, it frees you up to go and do those things. And and that was something that I that's something that I think a lot of people don't realize is, you know, in a healthy org, where you're growing, and there's a lot of things to be done handing off half of your responsibilities. It's not always a bad thing. Right? It allows you to go and do you know, more for the company.

Then I found myself in a bunch of conversations about what is the workforce of the future? And I mean, it's clear that people are thinking about being more efficient upskilling people, what is what what should people be doing in the future versus what are people doing now? And it's not necessarily just this cost cutting exercise of saying, like, Can I just automate people out, but it's really like reframing your mind to think about what happens if you can manage your existing cost structure the way it is, but set your people free to focus on the problems that you're really trying to solve. And sometimes that resonates, and sometimes it doesn't. But I do think it's an interesting conversation that's ongoing now.

Yeah, I mean, I could see a world right, where they're like, okay, we're going into cost cutting and redundancies. And like, all of a sudden, they're like how well we don't need you anymore. However, you know, in high growth companies, in companies where you have a growth mindset, not like a defensive protective one, there's always more stuff to do. And I think that that is often forgotten.

I think that's a really interesting point, especially if you've got somebody that's coming from the mindset of they've been with companies that have been around forever. And it's really more about, you know, tightening their belts, as opposed to fast growth. But you're so right, in a fast growth environment. There's always something else to do, there's always that next project to tackle, there's always the next thing to get into. So really, really interesting to kind of bifurcate between the two there. But let's let's move on to vision and in barriers, to communicating and people seeing your vision, like what do you think have been some of the biggest barriers you've had communicating, and then having people effectively react to the vision?

I don't know if this is necessarily the biggest barrier. But one of the things that we focus a lot on is just communication of that vision, right? I've got a, I've got a lot of things, from the seven, eight years of working on crews in my mind and communicating those to other people in a way that they can see that vision and understand it takes a lot of work and effort. And it happens every day. And it happens multiple times, you know, week, basically pounding the same message in the people because we've got new people starting every week now. And they all come from different backgrounds, different companies, and so they all have different ways of working together. And it's just how do you give them all the right information so that it can be as effective as possible. And that's something I didn't value as much when You were small, because you could pull everyone into a room and say, Hey, here's what we're doing any questions? Now you have to really, you know, pay attention to the message and repeat it over and over and over again. So that everyone kind of knows this what we're doing. And this is why,

Dan, I really like your point about repetition. And I think a point that I'd like to bring up there is that, you know, sometimes repetition can feel awkward as a leader, right? Because you feel like, well, I've already told somebody something like, either think I'm an idiot, because I'm telling them again, or they're going to be offended or whatever. But I think really, especially being repetitive about the vision, and where we're trying to take this thing is super important. Yeah, you know, like, a good analogy would be like, I read a lot of books, and I have some favorite books that I will read again, and maybe sometimes the third time, because every time I read him, I get something different out of it. And it's the same thing with kind of the vision statement, and kind of the mission of the business too, is like, keep talking about it, keep talking about it. Because every once in a while, like a light bulb will click in somebody's mind, that just might be the breakthrough that you needed.

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I always look at it as as soon as people are getting sick of it. I think that's when you got to say one more time,

right? Now, here's a question that comes up a lot, especially for growing businesses, is he bringing in a consultant in making sure that you're basically kind of having the same care and diligence in terms of communicating the vision with a consultant that you do with your internal people and making sure they're on the same team? Because we all know that sometimes these consulting projects can kind of grow a mind of their own and a life of their own and never end? How have you successfully managed that process?

Yeah, that's really difficult. It's, it's very similar to the question that I get a lot of, from non technical co founders of like, how do I pick the right technical co founder. And the reality is, there's a level of trust in there. But there are things you can do to make yourself a smarter consumer, right, or smarter buyer basically. So for me, a lot of the things I would hire for I would start off doing right, I would do the recruiting for, you know, until I ran out of time, and really learned how to do it and learn what I should look for. In that instance, you know, sales is a big part of that, right, being able to reach out to people and, you know, talk to them, and also translate the vision really quickly to someone in a call. And so I learned pretty quickly that, you know, those are some of the things that we should be looking for in our recruiting leaders. And then, you know, just getting out of the way a little bit, right, setting goals that are like, Hey, we're gonna agree on these, these goals. And if you make them, then that's great, you're doing a good job. If you don't, then we're gonna have to figure out why. And we're gonna have to figure out how we get back on track. But that allows them to kind of bring their expertise into the building and figure it out along the way. Same is true for all the other disciplines, really. But you know, I would say, start with really trying to do the job yourself, right? You might not be as good as someone you will hire. But hopefully, you know, you can learn and that will, that will make you a better buyer.

That's a great point. Let's shift over to culture. I've seen some of the posts you guys have done for hiring and I mean, they're hilarious. They're kind of spot on, and me, I can clearly see where you're trying to go with it. Is that something that you guys are specifically trying to do? You know, let's just talk more broadly about culture, though, like what is your take on culture, in the business and hiring, like, how important is all that,

you know, the way I look at culture is just can we create an environment where people can do as our CEO likes to say the best work of their lives? And for me, it's, it comes back a lot to do I want to be there do I want to spend time with these people? Or is the problem hard enough that you know, I feel fulfilled doing the work and I think self driving cars is a great one that we've kind of got the cheat codes because it's like, everyone wants to work on self driving cars, they're gonna change the world and transportation. But that's not the only part of culture, right? There's the mission that we're on. And then there's the team and the people that we're working with. And that's hard, right? Going back to some of the things we talked about earlier, bringing in 1000 people to go work on something has its challenges, because everyone's got their own way of doing things. And they might not be meaning to be malicious or, or whatnot. But they they step on each other's toes, right, as they're getting to work together. And that's exacerbated by COVID, as well, when you don't actually get a chance to talk to people and get to know them. And so, one of the things I I've been trying to focus on more of is, you know, understanding why people are here, what, why, why they care about crews, what they really want out of it, and spending time with them outside of just the tactical day to day meetings. And I think that that, that at the end of the day, right? Like, people spend more waking hours with their colleagues than basically anyone else. If you don't enjoy that, especially in Silicon Valley, there's another company waiting in the wings to scoop you up. And it's on us to do whatever we can, like, you know, within reason, right? We're not guests just make it so you can do whatever you want. But to make it an enjoyable environment. And I think that starts with one the mission, to making progress on that mission, and really understanding how the work like levels into our goals. And then the three is the camaraderie amongst the team and feeling like it's not just a nine to five job, but something that, you know, you're in the trenches, with your teammates together, really working on this thing.

I really liked that there's a lot of information in there. I think the two things that really, really stuck out for me is the question is the problem we're trying to solve hard enough. And to do I like these people. I mean, correct me if I'm wrong, but I mean, honestly, if you can get through to the answers in your interview, or when you're building your team from the people you're trying to bring on. Thank you kind of there.

I think so I mean, so as a as a new hire, those are the questions I'm asking, as someone who's hiring, you know, I'm also asking, saying, Can I rely on this person to do X, Y, or Z? Right. And that's kind of the skill qualification piece of it. But, you know, I go, I do think that we are lucky enough to be able to pick the jobs that, you know, we can do, right, you're not forced to go and work at PwC. I'm not forced to go work at cruise. I could probably get another job at another company. I hope, although I haven't interviewed in a while. But for for people in our fields, you know, those are the things that they care about. Right? Those are the things that matter. Because a paycheck is just a paycheck. If you look at like Maslow's hierarchy of needs. Yeah, we've almost certainly fulfilling the like, I've got shelter and food and other things. And you're looking for that connection, right connection with the people you're you're with, you know, where you make friends, right? Most people after college, make friends at work. And that's something that we try and build inside of Cruz. doesn't always work. But

Dan, I've been mulling on this, this whole concept of is the problem hard enough? And kind of thinking about like, how does that impact me personally? And really what I want to thank you because it's kind of the first time I've ever heard it stated that way, maybe that's a Silicon Valley thing. So I'm just not hip to it yet. But it's the clearest way to articulate kind of the way I think every day I get up, I think about my goals, where I'm trying to go and why I'm trying to do that. And it's really like, is the problem hard enough? Is this going to be rewarding? Is this is this journey going to be the challenge that I want to set off on? So thank you so much.

Yeah, definitely. I mean, it is it's, it's about fulfillment, right? Like, that's what we're all looking for. And I think part of that for the ambitious people is having a problem that can change the world.

Well, this just keeps getting deeper. I'm really actually probably have to spend some time kind of marinating on this one. Yeah. Am I changing the world? I mean, that's just a really exciting thought. So I'd love to think about that one a little bit more. But I appreciate that.

I'm sure there are things you're doing that will change the world.

You know, while it's a little bit of a tangent, I think what is important for me, right is this is the reason I started this podcast. I didn't start this podcast to be the next Joe Rogan.

Let's change the content of your podcast if you want to be the next Joe Rogan.

Yeah, I think what I really want to share, and really the reason for this podcast, is that I think there are success traits that are common amongst people that have been on this entrepreneurial journey. So when I have these conversations, you know, it's one to share it with the world, right? There's my change the world thing, but to to learn it, and then hopefully, you know, change the world myself, but there'll be differences and everybody's path is is unique in its own right. But it's also there's going to be a lot of things that are very common in lessons that are learned. And it's like, well, not everybody has to learn that the hard way. And, and really, that's my hope, from this, this whole podcast journey that I'm on. Let's talk about mentors for a second, do you have a mentor?

I don't, I wouldn't, I wouldn't say any one person is like, Hey, this is my mentor, I go to them for advice, or otherwise, I've got a group of friends who are all kind of on the same journey, as I am building companies, etc, you know, working small teams, and eventually growing them to various sizes, who have acted very much like mentors for me, and it's just a group of people who can, you know, talk about whatever problem is with and they've got the same experiences, and they can offer their, their advice and bots. So

I think about half of the people that I've interviewed so far have said something to the effect of like, I don't really have a specific mentor, and the other half have said, you know, I've specifically gone out kind of mentor. But I do think what has been really common, regardless of whether or not you're in the formal mentor camp or not, is the willingness to go out and ask for help and seek advice. One is, is important, but to what I think has been surprising to most people is the willingness of others to provide that help, and that guidance that they seek, whether formally, or informally. Is that similar to your experience?

Yeah, I mean, I think there are certain things probably that certain people and don't want to talk about, right. And that's fine, too. But I think if you have enough people in kind of the group, there's always someone who has some advice or thoughts.

All right, Dan, we're to the final question here. If you could go back in time and give yourself one piece of advice. When would you go back in time to what would that advice be? And do you think you would have taken it?

Ah, there's a lot, there's a lot of things. Advice I often tell people is ask what ask for what you want, because you're the only person who is really looking out for you. I don't know if I would go back and tell myself that. I mean, I think it'd be a good piece of advice. But I actually think I would go out and tell myself to go learn how to code more than I do. Now. Like, I don't know how to code, I should say, like, I'm very bad at it, I built the first website for us. And that was replaced, then all these other things. And but I think that that is a way of thinking it teaches a way of thinking that is just like, it separates people, I think, in their ability to create. And so I would probably go tell my younger self to go go do that. And I think I would probably listen, I tried to code things when I was a kid. I just never really took the plunge,

then it's funny that you mentioned coding, because that is actually the advice that I've given my two younger boys, I've got a 10 year old, a nine year old as of this recording, and they're both at Minecraft camp right now. And it's an introduction to coding, but it's, you know, it's an idea. We recognize the fact that this is part of the future, and you know, was something that they actually show interest in and seem to be excited about. So great. advice and we're already taking it. And then I guess to wrap this up, thank you so much. This has been a great conversation. I've learned a lot. And I appreciate your time. Yeah, thanks for having me. This is a lot of fun. That concludes this week's show. Thanks for listening. Please leave a review on your favorite podcast platform or directly on the site. Your comments are truly appreciated, good, bad or indifferent and will help make the show better. This is Jake Wiley with Wiley on business and we'll talk again two weeks