Dr. Ioannis Tsamardinos - Sometimes a crisis in your career is exactly what you need!

Hello and welcome to Wiley on Business a podcast where we explore how individuals and companies make dramatic breakthroughs and transform their businesses from a job to an enterprise with real value by enabling others to realize their full potential by being crystal clear on the vision of the business. My name is Jake Wiley and over my nearly two decades of business experience and client service owning a business as well as being a CFO, I've had the opportunity to see the difference between slugging it out to stay above water and exponential growth. On this podcast, I interview amazing leaders who have figured it out to get their perspectives on how they do it, share it with you. This week, we are joined by a world class scientist and innovator Dr. Jani smarty knows who has more than 30 years of experience in academia and Applied Science. He is co founded and is the CEO of Jad bio The only platform specifically designed for life science data, and particularly molecular data. Jani is a professor at the computer science department at the University of Crete, where he heads his own lab and his All Star team men's x mechina, successfully translating academic r&d into real world business tools ready to market. His work on automatic time limited actions designed was applied to the NASA Dean space one software. He is an enthusiastic dad of two and an underwater diver. Let's jump into the conversation. Yani, thank you so much for making the time to record with me, this is really exciting. I know you've got a really interesting business, I guess to start it off for the guest, if you wouldn't mind. Tell us a little bit about what you've got going on right now, what's most important in your world? And we'll kind of go from there.

Yes, absolutely. Thank you. I'm very glad to be here. Well, I'm a professor and former academic like, of computer science, working on automated machine learning. And relatively recently, we started a business trying to commercialize our product, which is called just data, bio, or job bio for short. Which like, is an auto ml tool, automated machine learning to analyze using AI technologies? biological data?

Awesome. Well, that sounds that sounds really exciting. So how long? How long has the business been in place?

Well, the business has been like in place for several years since 2013. But it started like, with us trying to raise capital during like services and consulting to bootstrap our efforts like to build a product. And once we did that, like, we entered, like, let's say, this startup phase of our business where we had like a business plan in place to scale up. And that started, like, I would say, 2019. So that's when we enter this new phase. So it's only like, eight months or so since we've been in the market actually with a product.

Okay, you said a nice key word bootstrap there. So I think this conversation will get interesting. Because for the all of these things to work, you got to build the right team. But I guess diving right into it. How important to your success in the business? You know, the growth so far, is directly related to other people.

Yes, absolutely. I think it's safe to say that I would not be here where I am. Now, if it wasn't for several key people in my life. We like to think that our success depends on us alone. And we deserve all the credit sometimes. However, the truth is that there are many people at the same level of ability as us. And they may be as smart as we are. And they tried hard, and they work hard as we did, but who will not be successful. So looking back, we have to realize that we are also needed a bit of luck to get where we are. And we needed some help from my friends, so to speak. And we should be thankful, because things could have turned out very differently. So the same calls for me, I recall several instances where my life took a turn, because of some good piece of advice, some idea support from people or because I met the right person at the right time. Just to give an example, I was applying to grad schools at the US universities coming from a low middle class family in Greece back in the 90s. And the idea that someone would pay me a scholarship to do a PhD was just an imaginable. I barely had any money for a one way ticket to the US. Nevertheless, I thought I would give it a shot and I applied to Lebanon. US universities to study artificial intelligence. And back then I had to mail the applications, they were not online. You know, I just had to be a scientist, I could see no other future for me. One by one, I started giving, like back rejection letters arriving in my apartment. And to my great disappointment, of course, and I was getting very worried, until I received a phone call from a separate professor at the University of Pittsburgh panas croissant is was his name is his name. And he went above and beyond like to help me he contacted my foreign professors in Greece to get recommendations on a personal level, he advised me to change my application to apply for a PhD and not a master's degree. And finally, he got me accepted like in basically, I will secure the scholarship. So I don't know where I would be if it wasn't for him, and I will always be grateful.

That's, that's an amazing story. And I guess, did that leave an impression on you in terms of kind of the next step? And how you would approach other people and kind of look at life?

Absolutely. You know, I was I was touched by like, the help of other people who very often, like do this without like, expecting anything in return. So I keep this in mind, I have to be grateful. And I would also like to give back to, let's say, people, if I can when I can.

That's great. Now, I guess, can you give me an example of where you realized you personally, like really realized that leveraging other people was kind of the ingredient to success?

Sure, absolutely. So let me see, I recall, some other time i was i was doing again, for Muslim days, I mean, at the University of Pittsburgh, and I was doing my PhD on AI. And it was a time where I was stuck. I had run out of ideas on what problem to solve and what to study. And I was going in circles, like with my advisor, on what are the important problems to work on and how to solve them. And that key moment that point, my advisor invited the researcher from Massa Barney Bell was his name to give a talk. And he described how they are building an automated software to guide masses next space mission, Deep Space one. The first of its kind equipped with artificial intelligence. So I read all his papers on the subject and went to the doc prepared. And to my great pleasure, like at the end end of the talk, he said that they are looking for interns to work on the project. So you can imagine like I needed no further encouragement, I practically jumped off my seat to offer myself as an intern. And a few months later, we were playing basketball in California together at the breaks, while in the meantime, like programming AI for spaceships. So they can skip scenes pass, and one comes to realize more and more the importance of the social network, and how to leverage your connections. Because almost everything we do is achieved as part of a team. And the bigger and more ambitious the project, the more you need to have a good team. You need the right people to work with you may be fondue if your enterpreneur guide you and eventually pays off, I think. I hope so. If you're nice to people, and fair, and you help others and be likable in general, because it is a very small world. And no matter what do you do for a living, word gets around. And if you accidentally brand yourself as a, let's say, not so nice person, it will come back to bite you.

You said something in there that I find really interesting, too, is that you said your social network. So and then you mentioned that you're playing basketball. Yeah, I know that a lot of you I used to when I had two knees. But I think more Yeah, I think a lot of us in in kind of the business space kind of compartmentalize like, you know, this is my business life. This is my social life. But I think what you were trying to explain, which I think is really interesting, too, is that they're really not that different. And then if you can bring people and make those kind of personal connections. That's where the real growth and may be where people are willing to give you more than what you'd kind of expect in the business case. Is that am I overreaching there is that is that kind of what you're getting at there. That was that was really fascinating.

Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. Absolutely. I've seen business deal be closed, like, you know, during like the say when you have a great dinner and in nice chats and talks. Or just like having a good time, like, a social time, you know, for example, I also play the guitar, we may like, go out and entertain ourselves like playing music. So I think it's much easier like to have like a good partnership and, you know, do business, when you're actually like, connect with other people with some social level, not just like, you know, work. So I think you're absolutely right. Very cool.

So in terms of your evolution, you're working with other people? was it was it kind of natural for you to start kind of making bridging that gap internally, in your mind of saying, like, this is your network and bringing the right people into your life is how you grow? Or is this something you really had to focus on and work through as you evolved?

Well, sometimes you have to get out of your own ways and say, and this, of course, like, happened to me. For a long time, you know, I knew what I want to do in my life, and I want to be a scientist. However, then, the great crisis, economic crisis came along. And I realized I had to go way after Finally, and do something different. I cannot pretend anymore, that things will be okay by just being a professor in Greece. And the whole academic system was about to collapse in the country. And that's when I decided to become an enterpreneur. And turn tried to turn the crisis into an opportunity. And that meant changing my life goals, my interest, perhaps my career path, my day to day activities. It was not about publishing the next algorithm in science anymore. It was about putting together a business plan, with a vision, getting funding for it, building software for clients. And not just because of academic curiosity, I had to combine the vision that I had for science and technology, and science I want to do with business opportunities. And I absolutely not regretted and I absolutely don't regret like going out of my way, it is a great experience, I have learned a lot in several ways, I have become a different person. And I would like to think even if my startup efforts fail, I will still be satisfied. And having enjoyed the journey. And mature like my investors will say, this way. Oh, well.

Yeah, that's, I like what you're talking about there, too, because my wife kind of grew up in academia, she's got a PhD in psychology. And there's a lot of pressure to publish, to get out there and just do research. And then, you know, I think what you found in what you're explaining here is that you found that maybe in the traditional sense, that's the way you you kind of move through your career. And you know, you can work your way up and eventually get tenure, and everything is great. But you found in the crisis, you're like, well, that's not gonna put food on the table. So I've got to figure out a way to like transition. And as a result of this kind of Roadblock, that came your way in terms of the the crisis in Greece, you found something that was more fulfilling?

Yeah, absolutely. That's, well put. I had to reinvent myself in some ways, or maybe move out of the country or do something. So yeah, I guess the lesson learned there is that if there's a crisis, try to find the opportunity in the crisis. And that's what I tried to do. At least, I hope it's going to work out.

Yeah, I think no matter what it will, right, because you'll learn so much that something good will come of it right, whether or not it's exactly what you're hoping for. Again, it creates another crisis that creates another door that's going to open. And I think your point there is is is spot on to is that in every crisis, there's an opportunity, you got to keep pushing forward. Regardless of what you thought was the way forward before, you know, some some other new door hope is going to open. So I guess getting back to some of the real questions is Do you have an example of where you got it wrong? Like you tried to do it all on your own, and you suffered the consequences of not bringing people in or having the right team members?

Yeah, well, I'm thinking back like it, what are some of the things that I have done wrong and some of the lessons learned, I think, certain situation in general when I'm not very good at handling is cutting ties, maybe making some black and white decisions sometimes, and completely changing some situations that just don't work out, right? Because my personality is that I'm a person that tries to find compromises and avoids conflict. So there are several times where in order to avoid conflict, I just lead situation problem and I go out of my way to find compromises. So this has happened in some workplaces. It has happened like in the collaboration with colleagues, employees, business decisions for a product that should shouldn't be black and white and gray. I'm trying to learn that lesson, when to stop trying and just take a clear cut decision, even if that means conflict and confrontation. But I have to say it's not an easy thing to do. And it depends on your personality, how easy it is for certain person.

Yeah, I can resonate with you there. In terms of like, my personality, I've always kind of carried relationship inertia. You know, it's it's moving. This is where it's going like this, we've got a past and there's a history and it would be easier to kind of just keep pushing it along, as opposed to making a black and white decision, I think that's a really great point to bring out is that if you could take a really good outside, look at your situation. No, this is probably almost maybe maybe were a mentor who would help to you take an outside look at your situation and say, What should I really do? You know, I should be less accommodating. Right. And I should move forward? Yes, you know, focused on the vision. And I think, in my mind this, some of the stuff I've learned through a lot of these conversations is if if and when you get your vision, so crystal clear that you find there's some disharmony or incongruent in terms of either relationships or situations, you can move forward with the right decision faster, right. But it takes some kind of reflection back on the situation and where you're going and saying, like, is this? Is this moving me forward? Or is this just seemingly the easiest route here? So I love making that black and white decision and making it quicker?

Yes, making it quicker, not wasting time. And, I mean, we're saving our ways in our patterns. And we just sometimes don't take the time to stop, reflect and make a clear path decision about that cost, and sometimes cost in our life. Because we waste the time. In business, it also costs money. You know? So, that is a big lesson learned?

Well, let's, let's flip it over to the positive side. Whereas, can you give an example of where you've brought other people in or you've sought to help? And, you know, you've moved forward much quicker. Man, I know that some of the earlier examples maybe in your, your academic life or education life, but how about in business?

In business? Well, I actually, I have a story from from my academic life where where I did, like, okay, you know, isn't as a good example, were you getting it here? Well, I did get it right. It was a big turn change. And I got out my ways. So I was finishing up my PhD. And I was doing research for autonomous spacecraft. And I had an offer to go to work for NASA in Silicon Valley. And everything was was great. The city was great. The research was great. The salary, of course, I will be officially called the rocket scientist. You know, nevertheless, at the time of that was happening, the field of bioinformatics was become a call. And we just had to be coded the human genome, and it was excitement and hype coming from everyplace. And my girlfriend at the time, was doing her PhD in bioinformatics. And she knew what she was working on. I was convinced this is this is the next big thing. And it's going to change the world. And, of course, you know, before behind all these decisions, there's always the women influencing. So anyways, instead of going to NASA, I'm sad to go to Vanderbilt to a bioinformatics lab with a friend who was putting together and that was completely you they should because I became a professor in the field I didn't know much about and I was certainly not the next group, which meant I had to teach and do world class research and attract funding, and it was completely new to me. And of course, I had to work hard and learn like the great It pays to be competitive headed. But in the end, it worked out very well. And 16 years later, I now have a business based on the ideas that were developed at that time. So what have I learned from that is that if it feels right, you have to take risks, and you have to trust yourself. And you have to give it a trial. And, of course, you also have to be ready to fail and pick up your pieces. Again, that's always a possibility when you're taking risks. But that that was my lesson. So actually combined, as you said, like the academic with a business because that this shift actually got us to where we are now business wise. I really like the automated, like, machine learning, instead of like, working for NASA. Yeah,

that's, um, you know, I think one of the things you brought up there that I really haven't heard in most of my conversations, but I think it's so true, is the the influence of the ladies in their life, and sometimes the twists and turns, but the amazing doors that they they tend to open when you trust your gut. So I like that. Thank you. Thank you for that one. So I guess what's, uh, what's been a barrier for you getting people aligned with your goals and visions, as you kind of start up the business, especially bootstrapping? Yeah, everybody's got an opinion, but getting everybody rowing in the same direction.

Yeah, it's certainly a big challenge, like aligning everybody, with, with your goals and vision. And the thing is like, that's, of course, the case, because people have different agendas. And my agenda may be to build a product that will have a big commercial success that users will love, and takes technology to the next level. But an employee may just want to finish his working day and go home, of course, right. So in general, what I tried to do is inspire people. And by presenting the big vision, the goals in the high level view. And in my opinion, you have to treat people not like a piece of gear in large machine. But instead, like try to make them understand how their role is important to the overall effort, how they will work is connected to this big vision, why they're special. And I guess you can say this strategy is the opposite of the military strategy, where you are going to need to know base, you know, people in the team need to understand what they're doing and why and how important they are. But of course, you know, I don't see. So not everybody believes in the effort the same way, or trust in ourselves that we can make a difference. And if you do have many people like that in the group, they affect the others. And the opposite also holds if you have a critical mass of people that do believe in the vision, the enthusiasm is contagious. So as a leader, you can accept maybe a few of them that are not so enthusiastic. But you have to make sure that the team understands the and believes in the vision. Are you that's that's why I do have to align people to overall goals. And

one of the things you were talking about is, you know, people kind of creep, right like their their agenda or their thought process creeps into it. How do you? How do you keep the alignment? Right? Because I know you can be inspiring, and you have this moment in time where like, I totally get it. And then you have give it a week and people's thoughts have kind of drifted. Are you bringing people back in like how often you have in these conversations and getting people aligned or realigning?

Yeah, the answer is maybe not often not but certainly like, as often as I can. So the good thing is like now we're like, not such a big business, maybe like 20 people. So we still like can actually meet relatively like often. And I have personal connection with with all people. So but certainly like I would say, once a month with most of them. You have to like be meeting and try to convey the new developments and new achievements of the team. The feedback that you get from clients and try to, you know, keep the fire alive and inspire and keep them in the loop be as democratic as possible with the decisions and so forth. However, I'm also prepared like a real As when we scale up like much more than that these numbers, this personal communication, it's, it's going to be more difficult. And we have like, good outer like processes in place. So ask me a year from now, I'll let you do we scale up?

Okay, well, let's, let's take a question that might be somewhat challenging. Obviously, you have people in your business that you know, you work with on a regular basis, but you're always probably reliant on, you know, outside vendors, contractors to kind of help with specific areas of, you know, whether it be a system implementation, you name it, how do you manage that aspect, right, where you have somebody that's kind of coming from the outside, that you need to integrate with your vision, and make sure that you're fully aligned so that when when they leave, and kind of are done with their tasks that you actually got what you need? How do you how do you bring that element?

Well, I mean, that's certainly more challenging, you know, because like contractors are, well, basically, you know, they undertake a big piece of your business, and they don't necessarily like, our own board for the whole trip. So well, I tried to like find, first of all contractors who, since we're a startup, like, they're not necessarily doing it 100% for the money, they also enjoy like this, participate participating in this F word, and invite to the whole vision. You know, and again, like, using similar methodologies, like keeping them in the loop, like keeping them in the decision process. Makes them kind of like feel that they invest in this much more than actually like, doing like work for the contract specific contract. Yes, but it is, it is a challenge. That's for sure. And as I said, like going back to my previous like, answer. If you care about lying, some people and you can you see that it's not working, you have to be quick to realize that this is your I have to make a clear cut decision. And these people are affecting the the team, they're bringing it down, and they have to go and you have to find someone else.

There's some good points, right? One is spending more time on the front end, you get to know your your contractors, your outside vendors to understand if they get your vision, not just Can you do x, right. And so that's all we do, right? It's Do you get where we're trying to go? So that at the completion of this project, like what you think is x is actually, you know, the same thing as my x. book. I like that. Absolutely. And then and then being willing to make changes quick, in the event that like, there is either misalignment or the vibe or the symmetry is not there.

Yeah, absolutely. I heard someone saying, like a big, slow to hire quick to fire. There are many things like in business like that. But yeah, you've got to realize what's not working and just let go, before you lose a lot of money before you bring the rest of the team like, losing their excitement or morale.

Yeah, and that could be from my past experience. And in business, I've owned a business have been, you know, an executive and several. Sometimes you get into projects, and you just want to get them finished, right? You're like, I just need to get through this. And so that we can kind of get our mojo back. And sometimes the reality is, is that like, you just got to cut bait and start over. Because you're gonna lose people in the process of just trying to get to the other side. And that's a that's a tough lesson that I've learned, right, is that, you know, like, Oh, this isn't going well, we just need to get it done. Right. Like, we don't want to make this mistake again. When in reality, we probably should, I should have said, I just think we just need to start over right? Like I'm actually the morale is so low. And you know, the the harmony of the team is so low that it would be better if we just said, okay, full stop, this isn't working, which says that upholds the values that we're trying to, you know, espouse as a leadership of the company and get everybody reengaged as opposed to just saying, we can just get to the other side, because then people will tend to look at your teams will tend to look at it as well. This is just how we do things like we muddle through this mess, and we get to the other side, and then like right on the other side, there always be Something right? Like, if you look into the future, there's always projects, there's always something coming up. And if people look forward and they say, Okay, well, as soon as this one's done, right, we won't have this pain. But we'll just be bringing on another one versus saying, wait, timeout, I should have stopped what we're doing and said, No, we need to work with people that believe in what we're doing, are part of the mission. So that yes, it might be more painful to actually have to start over or go back in time. But it's more in alignment with the team and keeps everybody like, Okay, I get it. Like our values are, you know, if you're going to work with us, you need to be here, you need to be at this level, you need to be rowing in the same direction as us. And then we don't tolerate anything else. He people say, yeah, that I agree with that. So I think your points are your fantastic is one spending more time in the beginning to make sure that people are aligned? If they're going to come in and join your team? And then to if it's not working, you just got to cut bait and move on.

Yes, absolutely. Yeah. So there are some human psychological kind of like pitfalls. One is like, if we have invested in something, then it's very hard for us to just stop investing, even though we're not we know, like, this is not like working out, just because we invested some time or money in effort. With we think, like, we ought to, like keep investing. And that just like, basic, human like psychological kind of people. So you have to stop investing, if you're sure, like, it's not working, it should be. And the other one is like sometimes, in order to get somewhere better, you need to go through some, let's say from, for things to become like a little worse, in the beginning, you have to pay the overhead, but eventually, you're gonna end up like somewhere better. Otherwise, you are staying at this, let's say, staying where you are right here right now, which is never going to improve, and this is the best you ever got. So you have to like, realize, okay, I have to spend the investment, I have spent the effort, the time, the money will learn something, too. And it's going to be tough in the beginning, but then I'm going to end up in a much better place. So, yes, you got to keep this in mind. And you really want to expand and make the right decision.

Yeah, we have this. I'm an accountant by trade. And probably the one really, really good thing that I learned from accounting, is the whole concept of sunk cost, right? It's a management accounting philosophy where it's, you spent money up until this point in time, but you have to basically put it out of your mind, as you say, like, how do I get to the best result? The fastest, right? So let's just say I invested in some technology and it became obsolete. You can't be like, well, I've already spent a million dollars on this, like, we're going to see this thing through, you have to look at it and say, well, it's now obsolete, what is the best return on my investment going forward? And I actually, like think about that a lot in terms of business and in my customers is just to say, like, doesn't matter what we've done to date. If there's a new outcome or a new future, that's ahead. We need to start thinking about that, like right now, not just kind of carrying through and like letting the inertia take us where we're going to go. So it's just kind of funny, you mentioned that I think about that a lot. And it's like the one real good lesson that I'm retired accounting three times now, I've had to learn that lesson the hard way. From accounting that I've always take with me, it's like, everything that I've done to this point in time is a sunk cost. Some of its good, we got to move forward.

But it's not your investment. Actually, I'm a little ashamed to say I learned this lesson in poker from poker theory. The money you have put, like, you know, you have already bet that that that is done. That is not lost. But yeah, you shouldn't consider that you should consider your chance to like from that point on. So yeah, for me, it was poker for you was a combination.

It's funny, funny, the things that stick with you and where you learn those less. Yeah, but I applied this in business now. Yeah. Which is, which is fantastic. And it's it's a tough lesson. And it's really tough. Sometimes, you know, being a service provider at times, like you have to go in and say, Hey, you know, being brutally honest, we've done a lot of work and sometimes things change. And you know, the on premise, philosophy of technology is moving to the cloud. And COVID is accelerated that so sometimes you have to stop midstream and say like, the future is over here. I know we've invested a lot of time here, but we We've got a, let's pivot. And those are tough conversations. So let's let's, let's go in a different direction mentoring, do you have a mentor,

I did have a couple of people in my life that I would certainly call mentors. And I'm really thankful for meeting them. And for them, like mentoring me. The first one is when I used to go to high school with a friend of mine whose dad was a prominent scientist, and actually later, he became like a euro parliament member. And when I was, you know, like a teenager, when I when I met him, and I would always ask him for life changing before life changing decisions. And he gave me the best piece of advice. Maybe we talked like 15 times in my life. And mostly he listened. And then he would just like speak a short, short sentence or so. But you know, it's not quite 180. It's quality of the advice, of course, and he was instrumental in me deciding like to become a scientist and making some career choices. And the other mentor, that head was a businessman. He was like, friend and colleague who was very successful Greek entrepreneur, professionally, us with a huge exit of his startup in computer hardware. And he felt he had to give back like to the Greek startup scene, and help people like me in the first steps, taking the first steps. I was clueless. At the time, when I met him with respect to startups, he was so helpful, share his contacts, for numerous working hours to helping us. I'm very appreciative of these people, of course, in all the other mentors that I had, and I hope I can pay them back. Like, somehow, hopefully, I can repay them. But I'm thinking that's probably unlikely. They don't need me. So instead, I'm thinking I will pay it forward to the next generation, the same way if I can. So I do mentor myself. I guess as a professional, I try to help my students I give advice, I guide them in their career paths, should they ask grown up my advice? And I feel I say particularly proud when they achieved something, and that seemed like a nice position to get hired. were, you know, achieve success.

Now, in terms of the mentors that you you found, maybe we'll go with like the business mentor? How did you how did you approach them? Did you just call them up? Ask them, shoot them an email? Like how to add a judgement? action?

Yeah, well, again, it was luck, I guess. So he was visiting Greece to visit a friend of yours. And in my university, another colleague of mine, and he made the introductions. And, you know, I didn't know he was a very successful intrapreneur. And I introduced myself and told him that I was starting a business. So he offered to help. And I took cookies like, invitation to help. And unfortunately, the person who introduced us if your colleague of ours, died, like maybe a week later, unexpectedly, so yes, I'm coming. There was a lack of events. I guess that. But I didn't actively, like seek out to find a mentor. In the business. It just happened. I guess I was lucky.

In one of the things that I've found in a lot of these conversations, which I find really interesting about the mentoring is that generally, people are just so willing to help. Right? Like, you don't expect that. And I don't know why. Right. I mean, it's, it's it's almost strange is that I think most of us don't expect people to be willing to go out of their way to help us. And you talked about in the beginning of the conversation, you had the Cypriot professor that went out of his way to help you get your application through for your Ph. D. program. And then you just met somebody. And yeah, through a mutual connection, told you talk you talk to them about your story. And they turn around said, Let me help you. And I think I find that so interesting is that it's almost like our human nature assumes that people aren't going to be helpful or willing to give of their time. And it turns out, especially from a mentoring perspective, the people that can help you the most seem to be most willing to do so. And then our expectation is probably that they won't.

That's absolutely right. And Well, my theory is also that probably the people who are most likely to help us are maybe the most successful people. Because they just don't feel any. They feel blessed. They feel like they don't feel threatened, they feel I want to give back. You know, so you see them, like actually successful people that you think like, well, this person's never gonna, like, take time for me. And they actually do. And it has happened in my life many times. I'm thankful for that.

Yeah, this is kind of one of the biggest findings of all these conversations I've had for the podcast is how helpful so many people are, if one you're willing to talk with them. And to ask sometimes in a lot of times, people are just saying, Hey, I just reached out. They were where I want to be. And I just reached out, and I asked for help. And they came back and said, Yes. And it's not your typical, like, I'm going to sell you something and you know, you get a response rate of 1%. That's great. I mean, it's, you know, in the 90% range of folks that are turn around, say, yeah, I'll give you some advice I'd be willing to help. I'll take some conversations here and there. So I guess, you're moving to the last question, which was one of my favorites. If you could go back in time. Tell yourself, give yourself some advice. One, when would you go back? And to what would the advice be? And then I guess, three, the last kind of piece of the question is, do you think you would have taken it?

Yeah. These are very, very good questions, really makes you think, hard and reflect? And also easy to answer, I would have to say, but you know, like, when I think about this issues, I'm a fan of Morrissey and the Smiths, on you know, them, I The Smiths songs like ringing in my ear sometimes that goes like, in my life? or Why do I give valuable time to people who don't care if I live or die? You know, so some people are worth our time, some don't. And the advice I would give to young Yanni would be that try to surround yourself with people who are worth your time and smart and positive. And so they can actually bring out the best in you, if you can. That would be my advice to myself. Which I have taken this advice. No, I wish I would.

I guess when you look what point in your life, would you have tried to go back and give yourself that advice?

Yeah, acting in my early teens. Yeah. Okay, the sooner The sooner, the better. I think try to set up your life that you're surrounded with people that you know, you appreciate you what you like working with the bring out the best thing. You know, it's it's not only what you do, it's like, you know, who are your colleagues and friends and things like that. To make that can make you successful and but but most of the like, make the whole German like worse. I think

well, that's that's great advice. And I agree. I think going back in your teens and trying to get yourself to override kind of the popularity contest might be might be tough. But to your point is like the the earlier you can start it's like compound interest, right? Like the the the accrual of things that would come into your life would be substantially more. We Ani this has been a great conversation. I've enjoyed it. I've learned a lot. I appreciate you making the time to be here. Thank you. Me too. I greatly enjoyed. That concludes this week's show. Thanks for listening. Please leave a review on your favorite podcast platform or directly on the site. Your comments are truly appreciated, good, bad or indifferent, and we'll help make the show better. This is Jake Wiley with Wiley on business and we'll talk again two weeks