Eric Lau - Talk to everyone - The Amazon way

Hello and welcome to Wiley on Business a podcast where we explore how individuals and companies make dramatic breakthroughs and transform their businesses from a job to an enterprise with real value by enabling others to realize their full potential by being crystal clear on the vision of the business. My name is Jake Wiley, and over my nearly two decades of business experience and client service owning a business as well as being a CFO, I've had the opportunity to see the difference between slugging it out to stay above water and exponential growth. On this podcast, I interview amazing leaders who have figured it out to get their perspectives on how they do it, and share it with you. This week, we're joined by Eric Lau. Eric currently leads product strategy for Amazon Alexa, focusing on growing engagement through helping customers discover more of what she can do every day, we'll also get a great peek in how Amazon views leadership. Now, prior to Amazon, Eric had his own e commerce store selling home decor and furnishings early in the e commerce space, with some incredible experiences that ultimately led him to Amazon. Eric, thank you so much for joining us for this podcast. Thank you so much for having me. Awesome. Well, Eric, we're just gonna, we're gonna jump right into it. So you kind of know, my thesis on, you know, working with other people, building teams, incorporating other folks into your vision, and really kind of building your success off the backs of kind of other people. So you know, as we really dive in, how important to the level of your success, would you say is directly related to the impact of others?

I want to say that's probably one of the key things regarding being able to work with others and help them realize their potential. I didn't realize that until maybe in the last few years after I've joined my work at Amazon right now.

Yeah, so I guess, can you give me an example, where you were this like, really quick for you?

Yeah, definitely. I think, before I want to say when I started my company, maybe 15 1518 years ago in furniture, and e commerce, it was all bootstrapped. It was all, I'm gonna try to hit the ground running, do it all by myself, work with a couple of partners and then grind until we can grow it and make it successful. And then ultimately, what happened was, it just didn't work out because we scaled to the point where we may have had 20 $25 million in annual gross revenue. But we just couldn't get more talent or per se, like management to help lead the company into the next stage, when I exited that business, and I essentially shut it down because it wasn't competitive or profitable enough. We then ultimately, I then, ultimately went back into corporate. And then when I realized that I wanted to continue to scale by network, and I took a course in organizational leadership, and also interpersonal relationships. One of the things that the professor john ohlman, someone I really respect, said, one thing that really resonated with me is don't necessarily start with what but start with who. And that was when it clicked, that was when I realized that I've put so much burden on my self to perform to work hard. And then it just all clicked when I realized that I have so many friends, people around me and those in my preferred personal and professional network that I could rely on to ask just for advice. And the key thing was just start with who instead of think about what, and then I reached out to a friend I talked about, when I was in business, part time Business School at UCLA understand was thinking about, you know, I'm fascinated by Amazon, like, who knows who they are, so I can learn more about it, and ultimately do it through a few connections, they connected me and I was able to get my foot in the door, doing analytics and strategy, therefore, Amazon App Store, and it was wonderful, and being able to understand that, starting with who was the key thing that just kind of clicked with me, and that has resonated and a lot of the work that I've done so far.

And that's fascinating. So starting with who, I don't think I ever got that in school, right? that's a that's a great quote. I know Simon Sinek is got, you know, start with why down but start with who? That's really fascinating. So in terms of, you know, you had the lesson, you kind of knew what you needed to be looking at, is that something that like, you're able to kind of like adopt kind of naturally or did it did it take a while Did you struggle to like really firmly grasp that? Did you have to fall in your face, you know a few times for that to click annuler

So the funny thing about that was, there was always a lot of fear about bothering other people, when you want to ask for help, or you just don't want to feel them to feel obligated when you ask them for advice. And when I realized that, I want to say most people out there actually want to help and genuinely want to help, and those that don't respond, maybe I reach out to a few people on LinkedIn, and they don't respond. And those most likely aren't the people that want to help you anyway. So those actually connect and respond is they were actually more than happy to give me advice, give me guidance, connect me with the people that could actually even help me better than they think they could have. And I think that was the thing that was the barrier to get past is when you realize that you can reach out to others and ask them for that advice or feedback. Not only are they willing to help, but you're also building a relationship with them too, as well.

Man, that is that is a really good example. Because I know personally, I'm the same way, right? Like, I'm always like, I don't want to be a bother, you know, like, this is kind of my cross to bear here. And then there's so many times where like, if you just ask the question, one, maybe you could have gotten the answer a lot quicker, but to like brought somebody into kind of the solution dynamic, as opposed to just get taken it on your own. So I really liked that. Is there? I guess, do you have any good examples of like, when you got this wrong? Maybe like you just did it on your own? And you know, you're looking back and like, oops?

Yeah, yeah, getting it wrong definitely is back to the business that I was part of the founding team. And towards the last year, it was, we were growing tremendously in terms of revenue. And the number of folks that were working in the warehouse, it was close to 50 people with an office in Hong Kong, and it was getting completely out of our ability to manage and lead, especially with three to four founding partners that just, we were not educated or skilled or experienced enough, in our, I want to say mid to late 20s, after running the business for years, to be able to continue to scale past that. And I didn't ask for help or advice. And I remember what happened was, we just shut the business down, closed the business and then moved on, on our ways. And then I reached out to a friend of mine, who was a professor at Berkeley to get some advice on what do you think I should do with the next step in my career? And he essentially just said, you know, what you should have called me when you were thinking about closing down your business, because you could have probably salvage something, instead of letting it go straight to zero. And then he goes, I really question it. This is really candid feedback from him, he was I really questioned your ability to really make use of going back to business school or anything like that, if you didn't even think about reaching out to other people, right at that time. And then what I realized was, then I was like, Oh, yeah, that's right. I had so many friends in business, I had so many contacts that I didn't even think of asking. And at that time, it just felt like a big burden. It was more like, I wanted to move on. I didn't want to think too much about it. But then I realized that not reaching out and asking for help, was the one thing that working with others to be able to maybe not necessarily save the business and more so like, maybe the end of it didn't have to be as bad as it had to be. It could have been a little bit better.

Yeah. And then your professor poured some salt in the wound there.

Well, that woke me up. But then I still went against his advice to not I mean, not not necessarily his advice, not to go back to school is more like he was like, well, you're going to go do it. Do something different, right? work with other people build teams, to be a true leader that helps other realize or perfect, realize their potential, right? And not just think about what you can do and what the people around you can only do it's really how you can scale and leverage the potential of other people that don't realize that they can succeed and bring them along the journey.

That's Yeah, I mean, it's a powerful lesson, obviously, it's stuck with you. You know, and I guess like flipping the script, you know, like you've, you're now a leader and obviously one of the most recognizable companies on the on the planet. That's got a management philosophy. You know, what are some lessons that you've learned, you know, on the other side when you when you got it right when you did ask for help.

Yeah, definitely, it's being a part of this company. And this journey here is really eye opening. It's amazing how the organization is built around small teams and leadership. It's mostly talked about in the everything, store the book there about Amazon, and how there are two pizza teams. And what I've seen is it's all about working together, right and working with other teams to build great products for customers. And that's generally where the start and work backwards concept comes in. When you're working backwards, you're thinking about three, five years ahead, and how you want to launch a great product for customers that bring value to their lives. And then through that process, that's where other people come in. Right? As much as I am a product leader for conversational discovery on Alexa, there's not all the ideas are in my head, there's definitely a lot of feedback that I get from engineers, from designers from even the folks that I work with around business development, marketing, who actually interact with all of the customers that use our products. They give great feedback when we write an idea down, document a plan, and they say, Oh, you missed this. So you missed that. And that's kind of where the concept lies Is there a lot of blind spots individually, and without bringing others in, you won't be able to see those. And you won't even be aware that you're blind, right? It's almost like that cliche of you don't know what you don't know until you until someone else tells you that you miss this. And that's when plans develop. That's when true ideas come to fruition and bringing that cross functional team together to get their feedback to build plans to build strategies, and then put them into execution. They are part of the ideation process. And that was the most important part. And it was eye opening, because I was like, oh, wow, I didn't have to go to the stress of I need to come up with the biggest and best idea. It's more like, I'm thinking this, what do you think? And what do you think we should do differently? Or should we do something the same? And how can we work together to build something great for customers?

Yeah, I think, you know, it's interesting to you, I've read the book. And I would almost imagine that you would be penalised if you didn't ask the questions, if you didn't have the people around you, like supporting you along the way, right? Like, yeah, it's okay to fail, right? But it's not okay to just go in alone.

Yeah, go it alone. And essentially, when others haven't even heard about your idea, or given you some feedback, there's no way you're going to ask them, like, Can we deliver this product in three months or six months? Right? It's more like, I don't know what you're talking about. We have our own goals and roadmaps. So we're gonna go execute, and you go figure out what you want to do. And then when you don't deliver that's it, that's the thing. It's just like you would rather deliver something, learn from your failures and then continue iterating from there. And that's kind of representative of almost how Generally, we as business leaders or owners can actually learn to as well it's if you don't try if you're fearful and you don't learn along the way then you're really not making much progress.

Yeah, that's so cool. So is there was there like a turning point? You know, I know you kind of went through a transition where you learn the lesson from the school of hard knocks was there like a turning point kind of in your your new role where you realized your ability to be the best you was like dependent on bringing out the best in others?

Yeah, it there wasn't any specific turning point it was more of a gradual evolving of things that I tried and people that I talked to, and through that process, I think the the turning point really came I was agents like around business school when I was interacting with many more professionals that were like minded as ambitious and driven as I wanted them and myself to be ultimately what happened was when I look back and I'm reflecting upon every three to six months lifting my head up from doing business school part time and trying to get started around up and Amazon and then I think about oh, wow, you know, I talked to these people and and actually make my process easier and creating a system to really get feedback as early as possible on your ideas. Putting them down on paper, and then gradually delivering one thing after another. And then all sudden, you realize that maybe about a year ago, people will actually come me to ask for advice or provide some suggestion ideas, then I started realizing that, oh, it's almost a net net mutual value creation effect, meaning that the conversation is ongoing. And when people have known that you've asked them for this advice, and you've delivered these things into market, they go, what about this? And you're like, wow, that idea I didn't even think about, that's a great idea. What's your interest? Or what's your, what are your goals, let's go do something with that. And then organically, both personally and professionally, a lot of these side conversations become tangible things, right? products rolled out in the market, on Alexa devices, and personally in terms of my interest in behavioral finance, and trading, and reaching out friends recommending to each other. And that's kind of like, the gradual evolution of this Amoeba relationships that just like we're just bouncing off ideas off of each other. And that's kind of where it gets really fun. And when you have the right people involved, that's when ideas can actually turn into tangible things in the in the world.

That's great. Yeah. And kind of like taking that to the the next logical question, I think is, let's say you have a great idea. And you know, you've got something, what are the biggest barriers to getting like these other folks kind of aligned with your vision and onboard?

I would say biggest barriers, really is about multiple factors around lifestyle preferences, and personalities and their own goals. And it's a mixture of everything, in order for someone to be on board with idea. They may like it, but they're not passionate enough about it. Or maybe they're in a certain life stage that doesn't allow them to take risks, for example, having a family or whatnot. And, really, it's about finding those that actually understand and get the idea right off the bat. And then very passionate about, let's go get out there and do something about it. And that sounds very cliche and things you hear all about, but really it is, the barrier is finding the right people at the right time at the right life stage and common goals and values. So really, some people might give you great feedback on an idea, and they may really like it. But really, their life goal or value isn't about being ambitious and trying to go after it's more like, okay, it's not a great idea, I can connect you with this person. But once you talk to someone who has the same values and principles, right, in terms of creating value, and not just making a profit, for example, then that's kind of where you can connect. And each person's values and principles are different, of course, right? You can have your own preferences. And once you can connect on that level, that's when that is the highest, you know that that is the highest priority for each person, that's when you can, you know, go out there and get things done. Right. It's, it's really making sure you're aligned in principle and values to be able to come up with any idea and have that motivation to continue to drive it to fruition. And you just need to keep talking to so many different people until you find that person where you feel like you can just talk with that person for hours. That's kind of like when you know, okay, this is the person that can probably work with a partner with to be able to get something done. Okay, there's,

there's a lot, there's a lot there, right? So sometimes in life, you feel like you're just kind of given a group of people to work with, right? And what I'm kind of hearing you say, and you might be telling me saying something slightly different, but like, is that you need to just kind of get out of your own way and go find the people that you need to be working with, as opposed to just kind of taking what you're given. And, you know, almost taking the easy route, but easy routes not gonna lead you anywhere.

Well, that is a good point. A lot of us maybe don't have a choice of who we work with. Or maybe you already have an existing team that you can't just go in there and swap them all out. That's not personable, that's not the human way to do things. And that's probably where I would start, which is how we really are how I would ask my own myself that question is how I really taking the time to understand those Around me those that I work with, and what are their goals? What are their personal aspirations? And is there a way we can align those with the common purpose that we're trying to drive towards? So that it's fulfilling for them too, as well. So it's, it starts starts with the people around you, I want to say it's, maybe that's one of the things that I failed to do, in my own startup many years ago is not really taking the time to understand, well, this is actually not really what you wanted. You have your own personal life goals? And and what are you really interested in doing what what gives you satisfaction on your job and taking some sort of harmony home so that you can actually feel fulfilled, that starts with the people that you're already working. And, of course, if things don't align, then maybe it's realistic to part ways. And that's just the real reality of setting a goal and getting the right team in place, or motivating your current team? And then continue growing it from there. Okay.

That was kind of loaded, too. So you got lots of lots of great ideas here. When you think about the people that you work with, you know, I think sometimes it's, I've got this great idea, like, why can't you see it? Right? And instead of saying, Okay, let's, let me learn more about you, you know, like, where you're trying to go, and then maybe trying to find, like, the harmony, or how, like, what you guys are working on together and collectively is supportive of that goal and that mission, in a way, and then let's just say you find out that like, it's totally not then like, maybe it is time to cut bait and kind of move off, right, because you're, it's just not gonna work. I think the the Golden Nugget that I heard in there that I think is great, is really trying to bring out what the other person's looking for. Right? And what makes what's their flame? Right, and then figuring out how you can, you know, is there alignment there, right, is saying, like, I don't understand why you can't see my awesome vision and how we're going with this.

Yeah, that setting that vision is important as a leader or as a business owner, or founder. And at the same time, finding that flame and passion in that person and asking them for the idea. That's probably where it starts. I think a lot of times as business owners or entrepreneurs, we feel burden that I need to come up with the idea, but that's not really it's really, who else has bigger and better ideas or ideas that you're just as passionate about, and let's work together to see and test and learn to see whether or not that actually works. And then how does that integrate and align with the vision, it's, I think that's where it is step aside, don't get in your own way and allow others to bring their ideas to fruition that, okay, a person might have two to three ideas, but that one idea aligned with your vision, empower them to try it out, empower them to test and learn. And then, of course, after a couple of times, a few things happen and work out great. If it doesn't, then it's probably time to sit down and think about, you know, are we thinking about the same thing? And is the time to part ways kind of thing? So it's just a matter of working with that?

Yeah. Okay. I like that a lot. Yeah, get your soliciting feedback on your vision, in being open to the idea that others may actually have better ideas. And, you know, could catapult this thing, you know, way further than you thought? Okay, I like that. So what about what do you do, when you know, you have a situation, you have a vision, everybody's kind of on board, and then like, you feel like people are falling off track. And he keep, you know, let's say you've already set the stage, you know, where you're trying to go, you've got a clear vision in your head. And then, you know, as this thing progresses, and kind of, we start to get a deviation, you know, how do you how do you bring people back?

Well, maybe the first thing is to not let people deviate. But then there's always mechanisms, I believe strongly in processes, systems, mechanisms to stay on track, and then catch deviations as quickly as possible. I mean, one thing that is fairly prominent at Amazon and spoken in the book too, as well are called weekly business reviews. And once you have that vision, right, three years, five years, it's very ambiguous. It's very far into the future. Really what it is, it's about what are we going to do next and the next couple of quarters and the next year that will allow us to test and learn and then there was always some sort of key metric that you track to see whether or not you're on track or not. And then what you realize is like, for example, I want to drive business revenue. And you realize that, oh, that's week over week revenue is flat or declining a little bit. What are we doing to drive that better. And once you realize that, oh, maybe it's not about tracking revenue, it's maybe it's about tracking the number of hours we spend planning together, and you realize that that is the key metric that's driving ultimately revenue. And that's generally where you kind of continue to have to tweak it's like this metric is not measuring the actions or behavior that really, ultimately drive to the bottom line to the top line goals for the business. And when there's a hard decision to be made, or we're making deviations, then you start Okay. Let's take our take a look at our vision and our tenants, what are our principles right now? Why are we doing this I back to your statement, I'll start with why right Simon's neck, I remember that. And if you realize that, Oh, this is why we're doing it. But then at the same time, it's like, we're not meeting our goals, we got to change something about what we're doing. And it's just that constant, keeping your pulse on what you want to measure, and being open to changing what you're measuring. If it's not effective, continue to reinforcing that message with values, principles, and the next milestones we need to hit. That's when the team can have a conversation around, Oh, you know what, maybe we need to change this. Or maybe when you change that, and again, it's a team conversation. It's not like the leader, the business owner, or the VP needs to say like, Oh, you know what, you should go do this, this and this, go fix that? and be like, okay, fine, I'll go do that. But you don't realize that all these other problems that you don't see, that's kind of when everyone, all the managers, and all the engineers just walk off and mumbling to themselves. Like, I've seen that guy worked at a bank before. And generally, the culture, they're just like, I'll just do whatever they tell me to do. And they don't see all these other problems, like, oh, the database is actually not organized well enough. And that was the reason why we missed all of these targets. So then, really, what happens is, it's if you don't engage others in that conversation to say, Oh, we look like we're kind of off track, what do you think you may have an idea of what it is, but they may tell you something that you don't know. And then you continue to use that mechanism. Keep your pulse on the business together, right with your leadership team, so that they can meet with their team. And then that way, they can talk about ideas to code. Come back next week, let's talk about what we're going to change to get back on track.

Yeah, I think I think you just laid out, like some real gems in there. And one of which that I really liked is you think about, it's real easy to create KPIs, sometimes. And then sometimes these KPIs, these key performance indicators, really aren't helping you move the ball forward, right? In the beginning of time they were and then like, you have all these activities that help you hit your KPIs. But they're not actually like moving the vision forward anymore. And you've got to have this like, go all the way back to the beginning and say, what are we here for? Why are we doing this? And is the activity that we're doing right now actually moving us forward or not? Yep. And then you almost have to have a real hard look at all your KPIs and then say, Okay, yeah, we did a really great job of like, hitting all our KPIs. But guess what, we just realized they're not actually helping us anymore. So we're gonna have to get some new ones. And what are they? And I see that a ton in business where, you know, kind of, to your point about the bank, is there like some people just be like, I'll do whatever you tell me to do? If that's what I'm measured on? Is that like, Did I do what you told me to do? Well, yes. Is that actually helping us with our vision? No, right. But like, that's not what you told me to do. And that's not how I'm being measured. Same thing with like KPIs. Some people get so focused on like, the micro view of their piece of the project, that they lose total sight of, like, the macro vision of like, Where are we going? And they just go heads down, and these things can run for months, you know, and it's like, you go do these workouts, and it's like, oh, man, we're crushing it. Like, I mean, we're doing an amazing job here. But, you know, nobody ever like stopped back and like, did the macro look and said, Wait a minute, like, but this thing is actually going backwards? Yeah. So like your, your, your weekly business reviews, you guys are kind of looking at it on both right? Like, what are metrics that we're measuring? And then to like, are we actually moving the ball forward?

Yeah, yeah. And then all those are the right metrics. Yeah, it's just like, it doesn't seem like why are we still getting back into my startup days, I can use those examples in terms of For example, why are we getting still so many complaints when our damage rates are so low? And it wasn't really the fact that the damage rates were low when we were doing furniture? Right? It was, it was really the fact that, oh, we just refunded the customers when they had issues with their damages, but they're still complaining about it. Not only are we costing ourselves money by giving them discounts, right, we're also still getting the complaints, when in fact, we should have just measured, how effective are we in pre packaging the product, so that doesn't arrive that niche. And what happens is that optimizing one key metric hit made a very important metric hidden. And that was like costing the company like, millions of dollars. That's it, just the perils of measuring the wrong thing. And at the same time, it's like, you got to look at the business holistically, your vision, your direction, and you're like, oh, why are we still getting these complaints, when we didn't know about these damage rates, and you're like, Oh, it's because they were covered up. And they didn't go back and chargeback or file a claim or anything like that didn't show up in certain numbers. So it's really important to track that key metric, make sure you're on performance, but at the same time, it's like, if you're not getting the end goal, your output goal that you're looking for, there's something wrong with your metric. And that's kind of be open to tweaking it, nothing's set in stone.

So how do you guys? How do you guys have somebody that they can see the forest from the trees? You know, like, if you're doing this weekly, and you're looking at these things, and you're like, Okay, look, it's such an incremental thing, right, like, we're looking at this, are we hitting our KPIs? Are we hitting our goals? Like I know, you know, from my experience, and then working with other businesses, like people can just get like some tunnel visioned on, you know, if we keep doing these little things? Well, like we all end up winning, right? But sometimes nobody's actually got the, you know, enough of like an outside view to say, like, Wait, are you actually making any progress here? Or are you just like hitting these trying to hit these little wins, which, which are going nowhere? So how do you guys do that.

So that's the tough thing about having a limited resource startup, where you don't necessarily have multiple layers of leaders in place, one that focuses to be deep on the weeds and the other one to look more high level. Given that I know a lot of business owners having been one myself, you have to put on so many multiple different hats, they're the operations guy, you're the logistics guy, you're the guy that needs to talk to the bank. And what happens is, you do get deep into the weeds. And what I've seen that has worked is really making sure there's a clear distinction between those that are focused on that metric, versus those that are hearing about the progress updates and reports so that you can look at more of a high level view. And if that's not a luxury that business owners can have, then that is something to really be mindful about. So that when you do look at optimizing our metric, you're doing that day in, day out, delegate that out to someone else to focus on during the week, so that once a week or once a month, you can kind of take a step back and go, Okay, I'm not about optimizing this damage rate, or customer satisfaction score or whatnot, I'm really looking at the business does focusing on this metric really translate into the business growth, the business profitability, and the sustainability of this company, and then take yourself out of that situation. And maybe even just putting yourself in a different physical environment, right, because that will inspire different areas of your mind and brain to think more high level. And there's different times to do that during different the day. But if you're constantly deep in the weeds, that's what happens when you have tunnel vision and you get siloed into just, I need to fix this, I need to fix this. Or if it's a cash flow issue, like you're just constantly every day trying to figure out cash flow. And what happens is you're not even taking a step back, like what is really causing this is it? Is it just a matter of calling up one of your key suppliers, like give me another five days, then give yourself some space. It's all about incremental space, creating that space to think reflect on a high level when you're not deep in the weeds every single day.

Yeah, I love I love your point about maybe having your meeting somewhere else. You know, it's almost like okay, let's say you meet four times a month. But like one day, like one of those days, you're like, Alright, we're going to just meet somewhere else.

Yeah, even if it's at a park or something. Yeah, that's Today, we're gonna think high level this is a high level review meeting in the park, or this is the weekly or daily meetings, we're gonna have me off that's kind of thing right? So it's just that mindset will just give you that space and give you that context switching so you can go this is high like it's almost like a subliminal trigger to go. This is a high level thinking session and This one's a deep in the weeds.

Yeah, yeah. I mean, even if you don't call it that, just being somewhere else, like you said, would just make you think differently, you know, and like, you'll be in a situation where like, you may look at it from a different angle, because it's not doesn't feel so routine. Yeah, I think that's super powerful. I remember that one.

And that's one of the things right, working in a large, public a big, there's different layers, like the VP doesn't have to be deep in the weeds, all he or she does is come in and go, how are we doing? Okay, that looks good. How's that aligned to our vision, okay, we're in the right direction, maybe you want to think about measuring this too, as well. And then they just step out and they go work with their leaders. They're communicating up the chain. And they're communicating on ideas on their level, but they're not the ones like day in day out, like, how many people use our product, how many people complained and whatnot. And that's kind of like the luxury of having those resources. But in order to get there, you got to grow to that size, and you got to be able to evolve and iterate towards that.

Yeah. And I think I think some of these little little hacks that you've given us, like, how do you do that when you don't have so many people? Okay. I wish I knew a lot of its back then. But it's more like I learned as I go along. Yeah. And that's thank you for sharing it. So I guess one, another question kind of taken in a different direction. So like, he was just talking about, like, your products, you know, at some point, you're gonna have to bring in people for areas that you know nothing about, right. And it's there. They're part of the vision, and they're helping you, you know, to get, you know, from here to the finish line, but maybe it's like a really technical aspect. But like you don't know, you don't know what they have to do. But somehow you've got to like paint a vision. And then like, you've got to figure out a way to incorporate them, incorporate them into the team, but also monitor and make sure that they're they're progressing. How do you how do you handle situations like that? That sounds

like a challenge in which someone has to be involved and mostly part of your team to continue to maybe add value to the product itself. Usually, my experience in that is, for example, if there's an area that I have no idea about. So for example, if I'm moving into a new product space, and it relates to a certain industry, or even a certain country that I'm not aware of, then I would have to bring in someone from business development and legal to ask them for their advice. And again, it's communicating, this is what we've done. And this is what's been successful in this area. And I'm thinking about expanding into this, for example, into the European Union, for example. And then business development will give me their perspective, and give me their ideas around, you're going to meet these challenges, there's different regulations. And this is not how they do business. That is when we would go back together to the planning document and integrate that feedback. And then that person becomes a key stakeholder. Because if we are going to move into a new space, a new product, or a new geographical market, per se, then that person's input is just as important as whatever experience and learning we've had before moving forward, then they say like, you know, what, these are the good solutions to the challenges that we posed in the beginning, I am or my team, their team, right would have resources to go, we can help you execute this portion to meet those and overcome those challenges, such that this plan can be executed more smoothly than we originally thought it couldn't be. And that's kind of, again, really bringing together that team and finding those individuals that can give you good, positive, reinforcing feedback that can come up with a plan that executable, and that's that back and forth communication. It's allowing them to be a key stakeholder or even a bigger stakeholder in that expertise area, and including a section on how to address certain problems in the planning document for that purpose. So did they become part of the like the weekly meetings? Are they like folded into the team? Oh, yeah, definitely in terms of being able to provide their feedback and answer questions and be it this is a small business or a team within Amazon, it's really their opportunity to get visibility in front of either investors or senior leaders, and answer questions when it comes to them. I know a lot of times is either a business owner or a business leader. We always want to feel like we have the answer to all the questions. And that's not really the case. It's really how do you work with your team and give them an opportunity to answer the hard questions so that they get the opportunity to Kind of shine and feel good about themselves when it comes to the answers that they already have. And they may end don't question their answers or when they answered and they're taking the effort encouraged to step up. Offline conversation is more adequate when it comes to Oh, I wasn't sure about what you said in that meeting. Could you help me clarify, but don't do that during the meeting? Yeah. Awesome. Okay, so we're gonna, we're gonna switch gears? Do you have a mentor? Yeah, I do have a mentor. And I'm very grateful and fortunate to have a couple from Business School, mostly those that are much more experienced than myself, and has given me great guidance on focusing on what really matters in the overarching aspect of life, which is like talking about, what are your areas of interest? When it comes to career decisions? Like, are you willing to work extra hours to on that idea, or that project space or product space? If even if you don't get paid more for it, right, that's kind of how you understand like, this is where my passion is? The second piece is like, are you continuing to learn what you're continuing to grow in? Right? Are you feeling that you're growing and feeling satisfied about what you're learning in your current role? And ultimately, it's like, what is your level of impact? I mean, some people want to make a big impact. Some people want to make a small impact, that's fine. Regardless of that, that's really subjective. But really, it's like, are you making the impact that you want to make, and those are key areas of guidance from my mentors, that have really helped me think about very clearly, this is what I want to do, as opposed to like the big company name, or the big job title, or whatnot. And at the end of the day, it's about creating value and adding value to this world and helping others. And sometimes, oftentimes, people that are younger, or myself when I was young, as you get pulled into this situation, where you're like, Oh, I can make so much more money, right. Now, if I did that, but that's not really the case. It's really, how do you position yourself to be in a place that you want to be 510 1520 years from now? Awesome. Now, do you do you mentor? Do you have mentees? Yeah, I don't officially call myself a mentor, though. It's, it's more like, I try to make myself available to as many people as I can. There are some entities that have reached out from the UCLA undergraduate program. And I tried to stay in touch and be available to them as possible. And it's really rewarding to see how they've grown and I don't really do anything for more like they asked me questions about like, should I go for consulting or investment banking? Or? And I tell them like are these are some of the questions that you want to ask yourself. And one ended up doing McKinsey and Beijing. And I'm just like, Wow, that's amazing. Like, I wish I had a mentor. For example, like starting with who back to that thing. In the beginning of this interview. It's more like, I wish I thought about that when I was an undergrad, and maybe my role could have been, yeah, definitely. I love helping those that are younger than myself and just have them navigate this tough and challenging world, especially when you have ambition and you want to do big things.

Yeah, I think that's so powerful. I mean, you think about like the start with who? You're working with other people, putting yourself in an environment where like, you have to collaborate all the time. Yeah. It's just amazing. You know, what you can do when you get everybody kind of rowing in the same direction?

Yeah, yeah. And one thing about mentees is I learned so much from them too, as well. They're younger, they're more tech savvy. My brother, he's 14 years younger than I am I, I don't necessarily meant to him, but he always gives me great ideas about like, oh, did you try this new project planning software? I'm like, I've never heard of it. I tried it. And like, this changes my life. So it's like, it's like, it's mutually rewarding. Like, I feel like I learned so much from just talking to people that can do that myself as well.

Yeah, I think, you know, is when I, when I talk with folks that are coming up, you know, it's it's funny, like, the older I get, the more philosophical, I think that my answers are kind of like, what you're saying your mentors provide you is, you know, we're asking more soul searching questions, as opposed to like, real technical answers, like, yeah, you should go for this specific company, because they've got the best name in the industry and like, they pay the best. And it's like, actually, it's more about where do you want to be in five years? You know, like, what's the path that's going to get you to your goal of 10 years, you know, and yeah, yeah, but let's, let's start laying out a path to get you there. And we'll work backwards. And you know, I think it's, it's interesting to see like as you evolve, how it becomes more philosophical and less technical in nature. Yep. Yep. So if you could, yeah, I think, reflect back and give your younger self a piece of advice, like, what would that be?

Sure you know the answer. Start with who, right? Think about why you're doing something, and then stop, start with who you can talk to just get a better perspective. And maybe a lot of decisions could have been made, either better. And then outcomes could have been smoother, regardless of what transition, I don't regret any decisions that I've made before. Because I did what I knew best back then. But just talking to others getting their advice and building those relationships. Even in the last, I would say, five to seven years that I've done, so has changed my life, just just doing that, right. And I felt like it lifted a large burden off my shoulders of feeling I had to be the one building the foundation and growing, but it wasn't really the case. It's really about how do I work with other people? How do I include them, and work with them and maybe even be part of their journey too, as well. Right? And starting with who is one of the key things that I would actually advise myself, if I were to be able to go back 1520 years? Yeah, I

love that. And I think, you know, if we go back to your kind of the opening thought here is, you know, you're starting with who, but you're also saying that, like, in the beginning, you're more afraid to, like bother people. And he kind of wanted to do it on your own because like, he didn't want to be a bother. But as you've grown your career, you know, like, at no point in this conversation, if you said like, work harder, right? You said, talk to more people. It's funny, because that's like, 180 degree opposite kind of perspective, from like, where you started, where I don't want to be a bother, you know, like, I need to, you know, this is my job. This is what I'm supposed to do. I got to figure it out on my own. And now you're, you're kind of looking back anyway, talk to everybody, you know, talk to the people that will help you, or the ones that you want to be around and the people that don't want to help you like, that's okay, you know, and like, that's fine, but like, don't be afraid to reach out. Yeah, that's right. Man, that is so cool. Eric, thank you so much. This is this has been so enlightening to me. I know. I've got some great notes and kind of excited to put some of this in practice myself. But thank you again for joining. Sure thing. Thanks for having me. That concludes this week's show. Thanks for listening. Please leave a review on your favorite podcast platform or directly on the site. Your comments are truly appreciated, good, bad or indifferent, and we'll help make the show better. This is Jake Wiley with Wiley on business and we'll talk again two weeks