Erik Oberholtzer - Building and Communicating a Ten Year Plan vs. short-term thinking

Hello and welcome to Wiley on Business a podcast where we explore how individuals and companies make dramatic breakthroughs and transform their businesses from a job to an enterprise with real value by enabling others to realize their full potential by being crystal clear on the vision of the business. My name is Jake Wiley and over my nearly two decades of business experience and client service, owning a business as well as being a CFO, I've had the opportunity to see the difference between slugging it out to stay above water, and exponential growth. On this podcast, I interview amazing leaders who have figured it out to get their perspectives on how they do it, share it with you. Today's guest is Erik Oberholtzer. Erik co founded Tinder greens in Los Angeles in 2006, a pioneering fine casual brand with 30 locations and growing at tender greens, Erik focused on democratizing good food at scale. He has since moved on to join co here where he advises founders of food brands, helping them do the same. His unique perspective on supply chain integrity, biodiversity, and regenerative organic agriculture provides an intuition for future food trends in uncertain times. As a chef and entrepreneur himself, he's able to meet up and coming food brands where they are. Now let's jump into the show. Eric, thank you so much for joining me, welcome to the show. I'm really excited to chat with you. You've got a great story one with Tinder greens, the company you founded, then basically the look back of the 10 year plan, which is the book that you wrote about your experience. So I'm really, really excited to share this with my audience. But you know, first I'll kick it over to you, you know, let you give a little bit of background on who you are, and what's important to you now.

Yeah, Chef, so happy to be here grateful for the opportunity to share chef by background training and identity. And, you know, in, in 2003, I was working in Los Angeles, and in the foodscape at the time was completely bifurcated between the high end world that I had worked in for so long, and the low end Fast Food Nation of Southern California. And what we saw was an opportunity in the middle to pull the ingredients, the passion and discipline and approach that a chef has to food, the supply chain than we had become used to in in California. And leave all the bells and whistles and luxuries behind and then look to fast food for efficiencies, scalability, relatability. And access and where we landed was tender greens, which is the brand that I built and what we what we what we called our our corporate identity was a tip restaurant group. And that stood for 10 year plan. And that's really important because from the very beginning, we had a long view and a clear goal that served as our true north as to what we were going to build the promise we were getting to, to ourselves and our families, but also investors and anybody else who joined the ride. And we created this culture of patience, because everybody knew that we were all committed to this 10 year journey. And there wouldn't be any spoils of battle until until the end. But if we were successful in growing 30 restaurants across California over the course of the decade, grounded in a local organic supply chain and led by chefs and every restaurant that we would create a liquidity opportunity. And at the time, we believed we could, you know we could land at a valuation of about $100 million. We didn't really know what that meant, but it sounded good. And, and we never wavered. Despite distractions and hiccups and false starts along the way we we were crystal clear on what we were building the impacts we wanted to make along the way, and the importance of aligning everybody around that. So everybody understood the mission and what They played in that mission. And in 2015, a year earlier than we had promised, we we took on a substantial investment that created the quiddity for everybody in the group at about 444 times original investment with with the lead investor, ACG capital and USS G, which is Danny Meyer's group that at the time was fine dining group and then Shake Shack. And and the book that I've just finished, it'll be coming out in October is called 10 year plan. And it's Yes, the lessons learned along the journey but more important, more importantly, the framework of Longview thinking. And, you know, we use a decade or 10 years as, as the distance to go. You know, for entrepreneurs, it depends where they are in the journey, sometimes they, you know, I do a lot, a lot of advisory work. So, you know, sometimes they're already three or four years into it, and, and are experiencing fatigue. But, you know, taking this long view and aligning everybody in a patient way at a time when everybody's impatient and wants immediate results, I think is it's a method that worked for us. And and I'm finding it's working for others as I help them along their journey.

That's it, you know, it's really interesting. I'm gonna go a little bit off script on you here. But you say you're a chef, kind of my background. Yeah, yet. You had the foresight in the beginning of time to say, well, we need to think about this 10 year plan, not, hey, look, there's an available space. And it looks right, like, let's just go, let's go fill it. I've known a handful of people that have done that, right, especially the chef's, I've got a vision, I've got a you know, I've got this art, and I've got this passion, and I just want to share it with the world. And let's go do it right now. And lo and behold, most of them come and go very quickly. Some of them just, you know, seem to kind of hit the magic moment. Right Place right time. How did you I guess, how did you come up with a discipline? It was trial and error? Or, you know, how did you get to the point where you're thinking, yeah, 10 year plan is the way to look at this business. And not just let's plug in right now.

Nothing, nothing great is built overnight. Also, as, as we looked at the landscape, yeah, Los Angeles, California, the US didn't need another fine, fine dining restaurant led by a chef putting his ego out on on the plate. It certainly didn't need another mom and pop either. But what it did the was something that that met people where they were at, in lifestyle, in in life cadence in budget, in worldview. And that that's really, that's more important now today than it was 15 years ago, when we when we open tender greens. You know, what, what difference Do you want to make as an entrepreneur? what problem are you trying to solve? And how impactful positive or negative are your decisions and your actions as you grow a business? So for us, in an industry that is very short sighted, often is sort of inward looking, you know, what's in it for me? Or how am I going to get onto the Food Network or into this magazine or get great reviews? Right? We were looking outwardly and saying, How How can we? How can we fish in this blue water? How can we meet people like us with with something that I think they probably need, right? And how can we grow a brand that that has value with or with out our name attached to the Marty so that the value is in the brand and in the team and the enterprise? Not then Eric oberholtzer Because I had worked for a lot of super talented, famous chefs who to this day are still tied to their stoves, because they never, you go into the restaurant, you expect them, right. And if they're not there, then somehow the experience, it's just, it's just a building, it's just a theater without the, the performer you came to see. So, we, we wanted to create a legacy brand. And we looked to some of those brands we admired for various reasons, who had come before us. And at the time, Starbucks was a reference and Ben and Jerry's was a reference, you know, with their commitment to ingredient and they're sort of folksy connection to the Grateful Dead, for example. Obviously, Apple was an influence. So, so there were, you know, there were entrepreneurs, and there were brands that we admired. And we, we drew lessons from their stories, and, and then also drew from our own experiences, so everything that we loved about our, you know, our careers to that point, we we tried to weave in to the culture of tender greens, all of those things that we wish we had never experienced when we extracted we edited out and, and those things that we wish we had been exposed to, we made sure that we made them part of the tender greens journey from an internal perspective and an externally we wanted to be part of the community and in a very authentic, active way. And, and we were we were dedicated to that from the farmers that we had relationships with to the communities that we cared for.

That's a it's just a really cool story. And I think it's just so unique in that aspect of sounds like you had a great team in the beginning. And you'll spend some time thinking about it now i'd love to go back and kind of tell me a little bit about the beginning like who is this team? Who was sitting down and having all these like conscientious, conscientious thoughts about the business and the plan and like who's What are we adding? What are we taking away? Like, what is this one? What

are we will look like?

Let's go back to that time, because I think that the formative stage it sounds like it was just a really probably a really cool time to

Yeah, it started with David Dressler, who co founded and co authored this book with with me and then Matt Lyman, who was a chef at one Pico and shutters in the beach. David was the director of food and beverage and I was executive chef. So we met at shutters post 911 and work together but each were arriving at the same independent conclusion that we were done working for others and it was time to do something on our own. Matt and I were exploring some things and went through a series of business plans we had a fish concept called Fishbone and we did this again at the water ice and we test it out and then you know as we went to the you know that ideation and testing what became clearer and clearer was la needed a place like tender greens. I had written the original menu brought it to Matt and then we went up to Ventura, California which is about 45 minutes outside of Los Angeles to Scarborough farms and pitch them on on the concept and you know, it was a it was a two page overview at the time and a menu and we say you know, we've written this menu around the ingredients that you grow. We were already buying from them through shutters. And you know, they had started years before selling to Wolfgang Puck when he was just a spa go enjoy Kingsley shell patina. And, and they were on every top table in the city. But nobody had ever approached them. So they were they were thrilled that we were approaching And over the you know, many conversations, we agreed to take cash investment from them. And then also a product for equity deal. So the deal in this was sort of innovative at the time, the deal was with every new restaurant, we would hold on to $25,000 worth of invoices, which would give us opening breathing room so that we, you know, when you open a restaurant, you're paying contractors paid everybody else, right. And then once we had $25,000 worth of invoices, we would give them a stock certificate at the valuation, you know, at whatever stage and then what they get a sock certificate that said t wipey restaurant group on it. And what that was, was a contract to you know, grow this enterprise tender greens, to 30 stores with a promise tags. And so, Scoble, like every other investor, invested in in the dream, not a single unit. So we didn't raise money for, you know, a restaurant and you were an investor in one restaurant, you were an investor in the journey, right. So those who got in early, you know, made a lot of money. But what was really important there was we, we had a true partnership and vertical integration through that partnership, which made our supply chain so much tighter, and so much more protected, both in terms of quality supply and price than anybody else. And then we were able to, to lead with that along with their culinary talent. And we use that, that sort of template that agreement with other farmers, and in some cases, in later years, we were, we had, we had cash and, and they needed, you know, operating capital. So we have pig farmers and wheat growers who, you know, would benefit by a cash advance, and then they would pay us in, in product later on. So we sort of flipped to the equation, but the results were the same, which is we had this bond with her, our our supply chain that was unbreakable. And that was, you know, it's where I think we were able to, to really lead with supply chain. And impact, positive impact because we are supporting small getting farmers as they as they skill and protecting their margins while protecting ours as well.

Not I really like about that store to you, as you talked about the initial you approach Scarborough. And nobody else, you know, they've been supplying all these great restaurants for forever. But nobody ever reached out to them directly and said, Hey, Bob, what

about a partnership? Yeah,

and and in the grand scheme of things, you know, restaurants have been around for probably since money was invented maybe before. And the fact that like, you're finding new ways to do this, that just really made such an impact for your business. I think it's just a cool testament to you know, my listeners in the audience out there too, is that the one Don't be afraid to ask and don't assume anything. Sometimes, you know, you make an assumption about some art, they'll never do that. They'll never talk to us or like, you know, they're working with all these other people. Nobody ever approached him. Right? You guys are the first and it made a lot of sense. And all of a sudden, like here you are today. It's a totally different world. I think. I think that's just such a neat story. And something that I think should resonate with everybody. That's alright, let's let's pivot over to the book. I always love to know like, why did you write the book like what? You know, obviously, you had a great business success. You've had an exit kind of liquidity event?

by the book. Yeah, a couple of reasons. Young people had been asking me to write a cookbook for years. And I would go into Barnes and Noble from time to time. And look at the cookbook selections say the world doesn't need another cookbook. Yeah, what do I have to get to share that that hasn't been shared already, so I was not inspired to write write a cookbook. With with tender greens as I've gone out and lectured in front of classes or shared my story hearing, there are a number of people over over the years that said you need to eat, this needs to be a book. And some of them were, were authors themselves or writers themselves who wanted to write that book with me. And, and then, you know, when COVID hear it seemed both in subject matter and timing for me that now is the right time. Because, you know, we navigated a financial meltdown. And, you know, other things, while we were building tender greens, you know, sometimes it was four year drought, sometimes it was escalating beef prices, globally, whatever. And, if you if your two cents centered on on sort of the the drama in front of you, and lose sight of really where you're going, you can, you can crumble in those moments crisis, whether you've created that crisis, or where it's happening to you as is, you know, COVID still, or even, you know, the labor crisis or third party delivery and technologies, inroads in into the restaurant business. So business in general, hospitality, specifically, is always going to go through periods of disruption and stress that wasn't anticipated. And I and I believe that one being crystal clear on who you are, where you're going and, and aligning everybody around that so that you can weather that that storm as you go through it, and don't compromise your values as you as you navigate a difficult time. And then, you know, more sort of incrementally Yeah, the book addresses some of the the wins or losses, the lessons along the way that are completely relatable, and in some cases predictable. As as a business skills so so I thought it was important to share the story as a as a tool for for entrepreneurs who are on some phase of their journey, you know, from, from concept to you know, to, to exit and there's a lot in the book about the realities of of an exit and the emotion of the exit particularly for those who have been with the brand for so long and find their identities tied up with it. So you know, we talk a bit about that and a mentor of mine said at the time of a large deal, you know, the good news is you just got a really big check from Danny Meyer The bad news is you just got a really big check. And I didn't fully appreciate that but you know, that money though, a lot of it was for liquidity was still assigned to growth projections. And you know, a check comes with pressure and expectations and you're beholden to that as as a leadership team. So I think it's really important for entrepreneurs to understand both emotionally what what that means that you know, you're shifting from being sort of the the one truly in charge with no oversight to now the you know, the person leading the promise that has a lot of financial expectation and pressure on it. And it's, it's different than you know, what, what you experienced in in growth Yeah.

Yeah, I was gonna say I can I can empathize with you on that I sold the business and then stayed with it. No, continue to grow it and while the pressures is Just me. I've got to do it kind of went away all by myself. Yeah, the pressures changed. Right? I don't necessarily know that they were less they were definitely different. Yeah. And it is strange, right? Because there's some times where like, we like, well, I would this is the decision I would have made a week ago. Right? I can't make that same decision this week. It's not just me anymore. And that that did take some transition. And and I agree, I think that's something you know, for all entrepreneurs, you know, that are going to go through a transition. That, yeah, it may seem great, but there's gonna cut it, you know, there's there's a lot of things that come along with the pressures that come along with somebody else looking over your shoulder. What, what are you doing, you know, that you didn't have before?

Yeah, and I think the, you know, profit and growth and servicing the investment expectations, begins to take the lead where, when you're when you're building a brand, purpose, impact, culture, community? quality, you know, all the emotional things. Take the lead and, and profit is, is there just the points on the on the scoreboard? And that shift was dramatic for me, and began to drain me because I stayed on also. So we exited? And then yes, partial exit, I mean, I still am on the board and a shareholder. But you know, I stayed on for three years as a CEO, and I can't say that I enjoyed it. Right. And, and, you know, it just got to the point where I felt as though my passion for it had shifted, so I was very honest, in the story about, about that, you know, and, and, you know, be careful what you wish for? Because you may find that, you know, some of your identity is, is, let's see, sold off. Right.

So in terms of, you know, maybe the cliff notes, because I think that one, the book itself, just to be clear, is not about growing a business in the hospital, hospitality space, right. This is a book about entrepreneurship, the trials and tribulations, right. So I want to make sure that everybody gets that, like, I'm not opening a restaurant, like this is a book for me, right? This isn't a plan, but to like, let's, let's talk to the budding entrepreneur, you've got to you've got an idea, like, what is what's the first step?

So I tell every young entrepreneur, answer the three wise, so there's a Simon Sinek Why, why does the world need this now? What's the point? So you have to answer that. And then why now, my world might need it, but the timings completely off. So why, why is the timing right? And then most importantly, why you? Why you and your team, your co founders, whoever you've assembled, why are you the best one to bring this to market to execute? Because at the end of the day, people will work for a leader not a not an idea in the early stages. investors invest in the entrepreneur, not the idea. I mean, the idea has to make sense it has to have a strong why and and timings appropriate. But at the end of the day, you have to believe that this individual has the integrity, the grit, the experience, the perseverance, all the the characteristics to make it happen. And so it's it's self awareness. Yeah, because a lot of people are dreamers and yeah, and I get I've worked with a lot of really smart well resourced folks out of Harvard Business School and Wharton who have a really polished brand but you know, they've never actually you know, busted table or you know, opened a lemonade stand. So, you can, you can be too high level, or, you know, you can be so much in the weeds that you You're not you don't have the the entrepreneurial vision to get it done. But challenging people to answer those three questions is where I start.

Yeah, I like that you brought it up earlier in the conversation talking about building a business, it has a brand standalone. So it's not definitely reliant on Earth. But in the beginning of time, you also have to recognize that everybody that invest with you is going to be investing in you. Absolutely not, not your idea. But there is there is a transition, like for me, I think, you know, similar to what you're saying, My next venture would be, I've got to build something that's not me, threat, you know, like, I'm a part of it. And I will like lift it up, and give it you know, a foundation, and then it should be able to grow on its own. And that's the only way it's gonna work for me, because if it wires me to punch in every day, like I'm gonna lose my Steam, we're gonna lose the motivation, and it's not going to be there. So as I think about my goals and my visions, it's Yes, I will prop it up, I will get it to where it's, it's got life of its own, and then it's going to be to nurture it. Yeah, I think you know, that what you're just saying there too, is that I also recognize that one of my weaknesses is that like, I will get in the weeds. And I've done just about everything, right, you know, like to your point like bussed tables, I'm not too proud to get in there and like, make it happen. Yeah. And I've got to pull myself out of that. Because sometimes you're like, oh, man, we've got to move like, this is gonna happen, this is gonna happen, this is gonna happen, like, boom, here, my hands and I'm gonna get it. And that's like, one of my I know, that's a flaw of mine. Where then all of a sudden, like, it's, you know, my hands are required for this assembly line to work. Every time there's a crisis, or every time we're up against the wall. And it's like, I've got to figure out a way to say, okay, nope, yes, like, I could get in there and probably plug back out, but I can't do it, if I want this thing to grow and be what I really want it to be. So a lot of lot of good lessons in there.

Yeah, and I think Yeah, to two points, that that add to that, you know, the print, there's also the E myth that you work on the business not in the business, right? Knowing that Yeah, you've got to be the guy on the boardwalk with the symbols and the drums and the guitar playing every instrument in the beginning to get it going, but you have to have a plan to get a drummer and get basis and eventually you make a band, right? Um, and and then and then along the way as you have a team having that discipline to say, Can I train somebody to do this and give them the opportunity for for growth and independence, so that they grow and then I can be freed up to grow as well. So I can go out and learn and ahead of the needs to grow this business and services business. So there is always a strain of growth from the top all the way down to the intern. And as a founder that gets too into the weeds or into the details can hold the business back

Yeah, you know, you're almost hit right on the nail of why I started the podcast right though one of the lessons that I learned along the way was no I can do almost everything in the businesses that I've been a part of, but I'm not great at all those things right? But when you can find somebody and empower them and say like I'm gonna set you free on this task. Yeah, the first time it might be a little bumpy and it might have been faster and cleaner if you'd done it yourself. Yeah, but you'll find that when you get the right people around you you actually like Stoke their little fires right and then all of a sudden you know what was like when I was a little wonky The first time you know the second time whatever it was, okay? All of a sudden the third time you're like wow, like what is this? Where did this come from? You just took it to a whole nother level. That's there's no way I could have gotten to

Yeah, that's the great reward when you you step back and you see your team doing it better than you Oh, yeah. And because now every every channel is professionalized, and every position is has an all star.

Exactly. And I mean, that was I've had a couple of those aha moments in my career where it's like, this is how it's supposed to work. So I guess we've answered the three wise so what's next what's what's the next step in the entrepreneurial journey here?

Well, I do think it pulled from that let's say the the self awareness right? Where Where am I today and why am I starting this business is then really looking far out in the future and saying What are we building? Where are we going? What's the destination? And, and once you have that, then you can begin to build energy around that. And, you know, if it's a business, if you build a team, if, if it's a nonprofit, it could be a movement. Right? It could, it could be just aligning people around a big, audacious goal that that needs to be solved. So whatever it is, whether it's for profit or nonprofit, I think having a clear, true Norris that is grounded in a value system that is both stated and clear, but also felt in just numb, catch the culture, you catch the you know, the, the integrity of the business. And that is that is modeled from the founder, and then sort of cascades down downwards. And then from there, it's building a team and then setting a strategy and you're off and running. Now it's blocking and tackling right now, just the nuts and bolts of getting it done. And that's where it's so important. That, you know, it's not just an idea or a vision, but you have a leader, and a team, supportive team to execute to get it done.

Yeah, I had this conversation yesterday, and I'd be interested to get your thoughts on it here. When you talk about, like having a vision of where you're going, it's got to be crystal clear, right? So you know, where you're going. Because one road of an entrepreneurial entrepreneur is not straight, right? It's gonna wind all over the place, and you're gonna get pulled, there'll be times where somebody comes to you like, hey, we've got this great idea. And you're like, well, that could be a great idea. Like, sometimes it's easy to get pulled off course you know, chasing something, you know, a vector that seems like it might be the quicker path. So one, like you've got to, like, basically defend against, like, distractions are being pulled out. But to, you know, it's it's also like, what happens if you don't do it? Yeah, like what, like the negative ramifications? When you think about your life, your goals as a person, it's like, if I don't do this, like, what will 10 years from now look like? For me? Will I be sitting in the same seat having the same conversations like feeling unfulfilled? Because I just let it go. And the reason I think that both of those are important is like, Where am I going? And what happens if I don't get there? Like that's got to be so ingrained in like your your daily like, Mo, and how you approach your business, because there are so many days where you probably wake up and you can question yourself, why am I doing this? Because I mean, to your point, you've had financial meltdowns, if you've had like, droughts and be shorted like you name it, in some days, you're like, wouldn't it just be so much easier to go plug into somebody else's kitchen, right? And like, I show up when I go home? Like, how do you get through those days, and the only way I see that being possible, as if you can see where you're going? So crystal clear? No, like, it's part of your being, until you can recognize it that same moment. what it would feel like, if you didn't do it, right, if you didn't persevere through because there will be days or many, many days probably along every entrepreneur's journey. Where you question, why am I doing this? You know, like, there's no certainty on the exit. Like,

you know, it's a, it's the metaphor of a mountain. Right? I don't know if you mean, whether you're a runner or cyclist, or a mountaineer, or whatever. There are been so many moments on the mountain where I'm like, why am I here? Like, what, what? I haven't had a shower in three weeks. It the air pressure is, is giving me a headache, I'm exhausted. There's some probability that I could die on this mountain break, what am I doing? But if you're, if you're set on getting to the summit, you don't want to go, you don't want to stop, you know, two thirds of the way. Go back. One, sit with it, you know, with your own sort of failure, right? But also go back home and say, You didn't make it. Right. It's embarrassing. So I think there's just there's this pure pressure that you put on yourself, you say, this is what I'm doing. And I want everybody to both cheer me on but hold me accountable to what I'm saying. And I believe more than anybody that I can get there and I'm going to just I'll run through walls I'll risk everything to get there. I'm going to do it and I'll be the last person standing and if you have that tenacity and that determination to to get to whatever additional destination you've set and you have the benefit of saying it's not only good for me that I'm going to achieve this goal that I've laid out but it's good for everybody who's on on the train and plus the world benefits because I'm bringing something of value to the world it's you know, you have layered motivations.

Yeah, I mean, I think I personally think it's foundation like don't start without it. Right? You know, because like, if you're just winging it and hoping it sticks right to my point earlier in this conversation is like there's so many restaurants that just come and go Yeah, because it's like oh, I've always loved that location and guess what it's okay that's gonna be more money restaurant is and it's like yeah, that's not a business plan. Right? Like that's I hope well, I guess you know, let's let's fast forward a little bit to where you are today. So what is what is your day look like today? What do you do? What are you spending your time doing? Now that you've you've done all these these amazing things?

Yeah. Sometimes it feels like Bilbo Baggins, you know I went off in his dream now back in the Shire. I settled into farm life here in Princeton, New Jersey, I'm a small organic farm and from here I do a lot of advisory work because of the pandemic A lot of it is like this and and I I mentor and advise you know, growth brands and founders I work directly with founders so i don't i don't get too involved with groups that have you know, brought in a professionalized CEO at that point they you know, they they're at a different phase of the business so I do a lot of that and I guess it's sometimes its concept you know, just helping them get to opening day and raise money and sometimes you know, it's there got three restaurants in the you know, they can do everything they haven't built a team and they don't have a clear long term strategy for growth and you know, some of that is just professionalizing the business you know, what is what is your your fiscal fiscal oversight and strategy What is your growth strategy What is your real estate strategy What is your people strategy What is your supply chain strategy all these things and it just depends on where they are and where the needs may lie and then you know i more specifically I do a lot of work with supply chain transition so there are a lot of brands out there that find it very easy to to game the the language of food and very hard to actually live up to what they're promising right so I I work with a lot of like bigger groups to transition from a conventional ingredient list to organic and then in doing that, protect the bottom line but also make sure that they get credit for for it through smart storytelling and and other things that help help amplify the message and the value of these ingredients.

Awesome and are you are you the guy writing the checks now are you making the investments or

I do some private investing, I sit on a number of boards. So I do I do some advising for equity if I really believe that that the founder and the concept is something that you know, I am willing to take a risk on and get behind it and and then I you know, I do some stuff in food tech in, you know, things that are still connected to food systems, but maybe a little bit more cutting edge or forward looking and risky, but I believe that they're trying to solve a problem that needs to be solved.

Work, this has been a great conversation. I really I enjoyed it. This is so fun to see where you've been, you know, tender greens, whatever story who got the book, 10 year plan, I guess, tell us a little bit about when's that coming out working again,

they'll come out, come out in October, you know, it'll be in bookstores and on Amazon and, you know, etc. And then obviously, we'll, we'll, we'll sell through our own our own channels that I co here and there Yeah, I think it's a, it's gonna be a great tool for for entrepreneurs at any any phase of their business. You know, and there's some real emotional, what I call founders therapy stuff in there. But also, really practical lessons that I think are relatable to any entrepreneur, whether they are have just gone through it, or in it in that moment in time, or it's something that they should be paying attention to and preparing for.

Well, awesome. I look forward to picking it up myself. And I'll let you know, I'll give you some I'll give you a review on it.

But I'll send you a copy. Awesome.

Awesome. Well, thank you again, any last minute, I guess parting advice for my audience?

You know, I think I think the key is, you know, for any entrepreneur, look at the world, look at the problems that are going unsolved. Ask yourself what role you might play in, in providing some element of a solution and in turn it in commercialize it, turn it into a business and and you'll you'll sell finance that effort through through profits. And and I believe that capitalism and in business are the most efficient and effective pathway to change in the moment, but also long lasting change. If if then conscious.

Inspiring word, Eric. Thank you.

My pleasure.

That concludes this week's show. Thanks for listening. Please leave a review on your favorite podcast platform or directly on the site. Your comments are truly appreciated, good, bad or indifferent, and we'll help make the show better. This is Jake Wiley with Wiley on business and we'll talk again two weeks