Rana Gujral - "If we are working together - You are on the inside."

Hello and welcome to Wiley on Business a podcast where we explore how individuals and companies make dramatic breakthroughs and transform their businesses from a job to an enterprise with real value by enabling others to realize their full potential by being crystal clear on the vision of the business. My name is Jake Wiley and over my nearly two decades of business experience and client service owning a business as well as being a CFO, I've had the opportunity to see the difference between slugging it out to stay above water and exponential growth. On this podcast, I interview amazing leaders who have figured it out to get their perspectives on how they do it, and share it with you. This week, we are joined by Rhonda goos RA, a thought leader in the AI technology space, who has been featured in publications such as hacker noon, voicebot.ai, speech tech magazine, and as a contributing columnist at TechCrunch, and Forbes amongst many. Ronna is an entrepreneur and CEO of behavioral signals, an enterprise software company that unravels behavioral signals from the speech data with its acoustic based deep learning technology, which is so fascinating in our current environment, where we are all experiencing a bit of sensory deprivation, in our current conversations without the physical interactions. Ronna, thank you so much for taking the time to chat with me today, I know you've had a chance to get a little bit of a background on what we're what we're going to talk about here. But I guess before we jump into that, I'd like to turn it over to you for a second. I give us a little little background on who you are, and what's going on, and what's important in your world these days.

For sure, and First off, Jake, thank you for inviting me to this platform. It's a real pleasure to be here. While I'm running Boudreau, I'm the CEO of behavioral signals. And what we do at behavioral signals is we we use algorithms to analyze human emotions and behaviors. And then we use that information to transform data into a variety of additional insights leads to making better business decisions and increasing profits. And that's how we sort of apply our core tech, a little bit more about what we do the if you sort of look at human communication, it's a complex process that depends on not just the words being spoken, but as well as they're being expressed. And what we do is we excel at distinguishing specific signals and speech data, and both a very specific solution that we call the IMC or AI mediated conversations that matches the customer to the best route employee or the agent. And we've built that for the financial sector. And that's your call for focus as a business.

But it's fascinating. And I think what's actually kind of interesting to me is that you may give me a little bit of a twist, usually we're talking about you leveraging others and how other people have impacted you and made you successful. And you think about your, your business model here, you bring a little twist in you with AI. So I'm excited to see where this this conversation goes and how you see the some of the pivots here. But you're diving right in, you know, I guess you're the CEO of behavioral systems. How important to the level of the success that you've you've reached today, would you attribute to other people?

Well, yeah, I mean, I think, look, almost everything of value any person may accomplish in life involves, at some level other people, and depending on the area of life you've chosen to improve achieving success may include include family, friends, co workers, but certainly, I mean, from a career standpoint, I don't think I think it can ever be done alone. And so I'm no different, almost, I'd say almost every aspect of my success is linked to impact by others. And I've had been, I've had the fortunate opportunity to be part of some really high performing teams, and I've had the opportunity to work with people of that have the ability to, you know, have the opportunity to learn from and have the skills I think I have today are sort of borrowed and learned from a variety of people I've admired through through my career. And in terms of the results of that achieved, I'd say, it's been, it's been a team effort, through through in pretty much every engagement I've done, whether that was leading a business unit, and was the core team I had or my entrepreneurial activities is like, you know, people I did it with, and that's no different from where we're at today. I mean, my job is really to sort of, you know, have have the eyes of the target, but then in terms of sort of achieving those, those goals. We do it together, day in, day out. And so I'd say, I can't even imagine if there are any specific aspects that say I, that's just me, like, it's gonna be really hard, because I don't think it exists.

Yeah, I think that's the mature way of looking at it. You know, when I talk to folks that are younger, they've got this attitude that they just got to do it themselves. And like, that's the secret to success. And, you know, it's this is massive Herculean effort. And I think the reality is, is that when folks are making this transformation from being like, I do everything to I'm actually running an enterprise. Yeah, it's, it's an eye opening experience, when you realize you have to use other people. And I guess, a good follow on question. There's, you have a specific example, where you realize that being able to leverage others was really a key ingredient to your success.

Yeah, I mean, I'm not I'm not sure if there was a there was like, a particular moment in time when that Tiffany happened, but it was certainly, you know, see, see, my career track was a more traditional sort of, you know, get your education, and then move up the corporate ladder types. And that's what I did. And, you know, again, I was fortunate enough to work at some amazing companies, amazing product journeys, and learned a lot through it. But it's really very different. When you're an employee, it could be a sea level employee, facil employee versus, you know, you go off and do something on your own. So when I did make that transition, when I sort of went to went into, jumped into my first entrepreneurial journey, you know, there there were, there were these sort of massive changes, like I mean, you know, your, I mean, for me, it was like, I came into it with a lot of experience, not only sort of business unit building experience, but also a very solid successful turnaround experience, where we're taking a company from bankruptcy to profitability. And so with that, you know, you go into that, from that to being an entrepreneur, is you kind of realized that a lot of those tools that you had at your disposal, that you had become so adept at sort of, you know, finessing and leveraging are just no longer applicable. And now, you're really dependent on others to sort of achieve for you that you thought you got it, and you had it under your control. And now, we're going to really have to leverage other people's strengths, very more so than you would ever do in a corporate environment. And so for me, that transition was really sort of that that big, big shift, big change. And it certainly didn't happen right away. And it certainly didn't happen without a lot of fights a mess and pain and mistakes. But it did happen. I'm glad that

that's awesome. And I guess, did you did you struggle to kind of get out of your own way? Or was it kind of like this aha moment? Did you have an epiphany of like, Okay, I get it now, right? I've got to, I've got to work with these people. I've got to bring them in. And I've got a I've got to be an entrepreneur, it's not about doing it myself. What was what was your journey? Like?

Yeah, I mean, I certainly struggled. I don't think it was natural. And I think you know, for maybe some people it is natural, mean, and I think, you know, the more you think, you know, the, the bigger the burden is, and especially if you're sort of have a life experience, you don't get out of your way. Because you feel that you got it. And also the thing is, so if you're successful, you've done things and that I've worked, and you sort of check those off and say, hey, I've had these successes, and then it sort of kind of, you know, puts you on that one track, because now you're going to try to do something else, none of the things that lead you to those successes apply anymore, what you don't know it, and you're gonna keep sort of being in that bubble of I got this, I've done this before, I've turned these business units around, I've taken a backup company and sort of gotten into profitability. So I think I know what needs to be done here. And, you know, I'm just gonna tell everybody else what needs to be done, and monitor it closely. But doesn't work that way. Because those tools don't apply those skills don't apply those capabilities are the ones you need are brand new. And so I mean, for me, it was the same. I mean, I did not get out of my own way. I mean, I would. And I ended up making a lot of mistakes in my In fact, I think, you know, I think it's a miracle that we succeeded, despite all those mistakes. We shouldn't have, you know, with some of the fundamental things that potentially I should have known better, but I still ended up doing and, you know, but I think it was quite a journey.

Yep. Yeah, that's what you just said reminds me of a conversation I just had with with another CEO, that he's talking about hiring somebody to kind of come in and do a specific task, he'll say, Hey, this is not my skill set. This is not what I want. If I'd met this, you know, a handful of people and just really smart folks, and I'm really excited about it. And I was like, you know, you actually need to be careful about hiring. Really smart generalist, versus like a specialist that's going to solve your problem. Because sometimes you get these generalists. And they are smart enough to kind of think through and work through some of these things. But what they do is end up getting in their own way, because they're not specialists. And they think they can figure it out. And they think they can do it because they've had this great track record of success. And then they come in and it just either muddles down, or it gets stuck. Because it's not their thing. So it's, I think that's, that's kind of spot on. You're right, you're totally right. Yep. So I guess, can you give a specific example, in your career? This, this might be a humbling question of when you got it wrong, right, you didn't get out of your own way, and some lessons that you learned there?

Yeah, I mean, look, identifying what actions cause causes failure and learning how to what them mean is challenging. I mean, an all too often entrepreneurs, lack self, lack sufficient self awareness regarding their own strengths and weaknesses, and then don't choose, you know, don't use don't make certain decisions, like choosing the right partner with complementary skills, who can sort of balance them and sort of like, you know, keep them in check. And I've worked in my fair share of entrepreneurial proneural environments over the years, and I've had certainly made mistakes along the way. And I mean, I'd say like, if I were to sort of look at my force, purely, totally, you know, from ground up entrepreneurial venture, the startup I did, I ended up making some sort of really fundamental mistakes, which, you know, which ranged from, you know, hiring employees, early based on, you know, what, you know, I said, their sound salary requirements, or, you know, to be a little bit more, I'd say, stingy upfront, in terms of receiving cash and maximizing the runway bit, versus purely going based on their talent and their give the skills and experience, because, you know, it's a balance that you would need to do. And you think, like, you know, I think initially, I know, what's most of what I need to get done, I don't really need this specialists, I can sort of, you know, train these people up, and I can, you know, teach them what needs to be done. And then you lose a lot of time. I mean, you know, it's sort of like, you know, you kind of know, intuitively that you get what you pay for, but you still ended up, I still end up making that mistake, and I lost a lot of time for me, then again, you know, you kind of know, it's learned through a lot of experience from a lot of smart people is that don't wait to launch the perfect product. But, you know, I'd say my training of being in some very structure, corporate worlds, where, you know, that is exactly what you would do is like, you would wait to launch the perfect product, you would not launch it until it's absolutely perfect. In fact, I remember, in a lot of, in a lot of situations where we would sort of, you know, had this sort of good x meeting, which is the final leading to self assessment experience, and after a year, and a half of effort has gone into building a product and several millions of dollars, and you would still kill the product, because it doesn't quite measure out. And that would be the bar, sort of, you know, high end corporate product launch would have. But for a startup, that would be, you know, completely sort of deathwish to be in that mindset, but you know, I ended up making those mistakes, too. It's like, you know, let's make it perfect before we do before we go ahead with it. And I think the last one would be sort of to failing to create and listen to an effective support group, you know, you need to sort of have people around you that, that can watch out for your mistakes and look for your blind spots and sort of guide you through the process. But most entrepreneurs, I think, sort of do this very late in the game or not do it at all, because they feel they got it. And, you know, and I think that's a huge mistake. And so I think, you know, again, if I look back, I'd say I made all of those mistakes. And, you know, and learned a lot through that process. And eventually, if he succeeded, it was despite those mistakes, and, you know, it happened to be sort of, like tremendous amount of effort that everybody else put together, put in into that initiative or to get us to the finish line.

Okay, well, you just you threw a lot at me. There's some good ones in there, I guess almost kind of go in reverse order. Finding the support group. I think that that's you're spot on, like that's something that a lot of people struggle with. And I've talked to a lot of entrepreneurs that really get hung up on the fact that when they're out kind of looking for funding We're looking for people to support them. They want to present this like perfect case, like everything is great that got it, you know, it's, you know, there's works and everything and you're trying to cover over it. When in when in reality, a lot of the people that want to support you are really supporting you as an individual on your journey and your team on their journey. And have been there done that, and you've seen a lot of these things before, and probably could have been the most supportive people that you would have had, if you just said, hey, I've got this question, or this isn't perfect, this, these are the things that we're trying to overcome. But I guess in your mind, where would you find? Where do you find that support group?

Yeah, I mean, I mean, see, the number one question is who has your back, right? So a strong support network shirt. And, like, when you're doing a startup, or starting any business, you typically consumed by the day to day management. And, you know, like, for me, like, I knew it was important to build a network of advisers, but I kept putting it off. And so it wasn't like, I wasn't aware of that. It's just like, it's not a priority. And as a result, I make strategic mistakes, that experienced advisors would have caught on day one and advised me against and if only I had taken the time to actually build my advisory team in the first place. And that would have not happened. And so I mean, being a successful entrepreneur takes more than just accepting that you do not know everything, you need to proactively take steps to surround yourself with the people who can make up for those knowledge gaps, and who will speak up to stop mistake, seek their advice and act on it. And so depending on what you're doing, I mean, those those advisors will come from the industry, the people who you look up to people you trust, in terms of their expertise, and experience. And others, you know, sort of who are sort of sort of very skilled in specific niche areas, like, you know, I'd say you could say, finance, or you could say some other aspects of product operational expertise, which you may not have a knowledge for, you may not even need it today. But you know, getting the guidance on it will put you in the in the right direction. So I think I'd say the challenge is less of where to find them is more of prioritizing that task, and having the self awareness that you need to do it, and you need to do it today. Because it takes time. And it takes effort, and usually just not a brag. That's what I see. I mean, once it's it becomes a priority. I think finding the right experts. It's not that hard. I mean, especially if you sort of had some experience, and you have an industry network. You know, there's a lot of people out there who would really like like to help you if you let them. Yeah,

that's a great point that I think, would your advice be? Yes, your you feel like you're in a delicate position, especially in a startup world or growing your business. But get out there and talk to people about where you really need help. Because I think that that's the reticence that I see a lot of is that entrepreneurs are not willing to kind of expose their weaknesses in a way. And therefore like, do your point you struggle, maybe for years, and maybe you've failed to launch because you can never get out of your own way. But what would your advice be to get out there to start talking to people be willing to be a little bit vulnerable, in that, you know, net net that's going to that's going to, it's going to be a better, I guess, win for you than just kind of holding on and hoping that this philosophy, this gluten idea is going to finally get across the finish line on its own?

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, that's exactly what what needs to get done get to do is to go out there and talk and engage and interact. vulnerability, and you pointed out, it's really important, I mean, where their ability builds trust, if you can't be vulnerable, and not going to have a lot of trusting relationships. And so you have to sort of, you know, sort of create curate your services circle where you can actually be vulnerable, you could sort of, you know, speak your mind and say, Hey, I have no idea how this needs to get done. What do you think? And and I think, you know, you need to sort of have your core team that you can have those conversations with, and, and those team members are expected to have your back around around that initiative, and it allows them then to open up, I mean, if you're vulnerable in front of them and opening up and having a conversation such as this, and then you would have your team members open up and express to you what they're struggling with, which typically they won't, unless you sort of feel invested in building trust with them. And so I think it goes both ways. And it is, you know, it could be a vicious circle, or it could actually be a very solid sort of reinforcing mechanism that that makes you tighter and more effective.

That's awesome. So the other thing that I want to kind of go back to a little bit is I'm super guilty this in my career team is here. When you go out and you try and find somebody to do something, whether you're hiring them or like you're bringing them in as a contractor, you know, a lot of times you almost come up with some, like arbitrary expectation of like, how much it's gonna cost and or how much you're willing to pay for it. And therefore, you start having these discussions and you know, you're like, Okay, well, maybe, maybe I can stretch here, this guy that this guy or gal, that's not quite where I want them to be. And to your point, like, I can kind of train them up on some of their gaps. And I think that this is the right solution, versus looking at and saying, like, what does this cost? Let's go to the market and find out, and then build our business plan around that and execute quickly? I guess what's your what would be your advice there as to how to approach that so as to not get kind of stuck in that I'm going to spend two years trying to train this guy, and eventually, they're just gonna burn out.

This, this is really important. I mean, you know, and it's a huge mistake, and it's a very common mistake I made when funds are tight, and foregoing top talent can help cut costs. But those short term savings can and will haunt you down the road. I mean, talented people know their value. And sure, some may be willing to take a small pay, cut and join our team, but they're not going to work for peanuts, in using cost as a primary driver for hiring decisions is one of the biggest mistakes you can make at a startup or any business venture, in my opinion. And I mean, you kind of need to sort of, you know, really sort of, understand the dynamics of what leads to that experience, and how that experience relevant for you. And, and, and sort of, you know, be sort of, like the kind of sphere of that experience, and, and have, you know, have the ability to sort of leverage those capabilities towards the past that you're, you know, up against? And, you know, it's, it depends on, you know, it depends on what you're trying to do. But if you're doing something complex as getting a tech startup off the ground, you know, you, you don't really have time to train, you have you need to execute, because even your execution may require a few iterations. And it often does. you execute towards a plan, and that plan needs to be tweaked. And then you have to do it again. And those are what we call pivots. And so really, you don't really have a lot of time to train, I mean, you got to just go and you have to find the right people that can help you go in the right direction and do it properly. So it's really important. And I think it's a common trap. A lot of people fall into it.

And I've done that. So it's kind of my heart. Yeah. Yeah. Okay, well, let's, let's flip the script a little bit and kind of talk about when you when you did it, right, you got out of your way. And you're able to bring in the right people or talent or teams, in the lessons that you learned doing it that way.

Yeah, I mean, I think, I think when I got entirely comfortable with making mistakes, and failing, and that, again, has been a journey, right? Because you're sort of always trying to not fail and not make mistakes. But when you get to a point where you're okay, making those mistakes, then things change from that point on. I mean, the fear of making mistakes can destroy your company, and especially if you're so afraid of mistakes, that you will never venture outside of your comfort zone. And that's when you're in will get into those control issues. And again, it's a vicious downward spiral, because that's exactly what's gonna make you fail. So I think when you when I got I got to that point, when it was fine, I was like, okay, you know, I'm entirely comfortable making these mistakes, and I'm entirely fine feeling, then things change. No, I think that's from that point on, you know, because mindset is really, really key. And when mindset changes, you kind of tend to start to make the right decisions. And I mean, for me, it was more routes of delegation, and also, sort of, you know, just sort of taking some of those things, which, you know, are really, really key to success and making somebody else completely Terry responsible for it. And, and, you know, and then trusting them to do that job. And I think, you know, you get to that point where you're able to do that. And then suddenly, you get the superpowers because now you have more time to go focus on other things. And you realize that there are a dozen other really, really important things that you need to get done, which you weren't even thinking about, because you were so enamored by x. And I think, I think that's how you multiply your bandwidth and accelerate and it's all about accelerating. It's all about, you know, going through those iterations as fast as you can, because you're gonna have to do multiple iterations to get to where you want to be.

And I think that's a dovetails perfectly into my next question, but a little preamble to that is, you think about as an entrepreneurial over your experience, the things that end up suck The most of your time are probably those things that you're not comfortable with, you're not familiar with, and really somebody else should be doing. But they become your problems and you kind of take them on. And then you realize, you look up one day and you realize you're spending, you know, less than 20% of the time on the things that you're really good at. And 80% of the time, like trying to fight fires and solve problems that are really outside of your either your realm of expertise, or something that you're even passionate about. So I guess really, the question is, Do you recall, like a turning point in your career, when you kind of realize that your ability to get out of your own way and empowering others? was, I guess, helped you get to where you're going? And it was it? Was it a kind of a crystallization in your mind? Or was it just kind of this gradual process over time?

Yeah, I mean, I mean, I think certainly, it was a gradual process. And it was a slow, gradual process that many mistakes on the way. I mean, it's very difficult to be totally honest with yourself about whether you accept any standard short of perfection. And you know, if you're a bit of a control freak. And unsurprisingly, these are common traits of an entrepreneur, I mean, be proud to say that you are hard workers fine. But alongside this bad foreigner is a tendency to hog the workload, and it's not good for business, let alone the individual yourself. And then there'll be a time when deadlines are missed. And if you feel the brunt of your burnout, and delegation is longer, no longer a choice, and, you know, it's too late. So your lack of delegation is definitely due to trust issues. And if so, it's time to be brutally honest with yourself. And you know, it's not a sign of weakness, it's more of a sign of strength and to admit that one person cannot and should not do at all. And so for me, okay, you know, intuitively, of course, I mean, that that's common sense, right? I mean, but common sense is not always common. When we're in that in that mode that makes the, it's usually the hardest thing to see is what's right in front of your nose. And those are the kinds of things which are right in front of you, but you're ignoring them. And I think for the most people, you ignore them, you make mistakes, you reflect you learn from those mistakes, and not do it again. slow, gradual process of learning. Let's, yeah,

I mean, I think that's, that's pretty common. Most people don't have this just like aha moment where like, I got it, right. Like, there's just like, flip switch. But I think most mature, you know, entrepreneurs and really investors that, you know, come from the entrepreneur space, get it, you know, it takes a minute. One of the things you just mentioned was kind of like delegating and empowering other people. Right? So like, that's, that's really the success to leveraging your ability to be, you know, it's your multiplier effect. I guess the risk is that like, there's, there's a wrong way of delegating. And it's, you know, is Michael Gerber would say it's, it's delegating by abdication, right? You're just saying, Okay, this isn't my thing, this is your thing, like you go do that, and then come back to me when it's when it's great. As opposed to saying, This is my vision, this is where we're going in the business, let's get crystal clear on what we're kind of expecting the outcomes to be, I'm not going to tell you how to do your job, because that's why I hired you, you know how to get from here to there. But I just need to make sure that like, I've really been very clear on what there is. So that as we check in and guess we're gonna hit bumps in the road, we're making it. What's been the biggest barrier for you, I guess, is is in that process? Like how do you how do you get people aligned with your goals? And how do you monitor that in a way where you can delegate? But you don't abdicate?

Good question. Really good question. I'd say I'd say culture, right. So the most productive and effective organizations, those that have the most engaged and creative people are, are the organizations that have a culture that's focused on this on the strength of their voice. And the emphasis is on what people can do, not what they can't do. And none of this happens by itself, right. So it takes a living example in a specific direction, more more so than often from the leader. And it's really hard. It's very hard, what needs to have the philosophy that strengths are the primary focus of how, you know, within the strategic plans that you need to sort of act on. And establishing a team structure, grounded in strength allows people to maximize and contribute the best of themselves, and then trusting your people to apply themselves and be stretched beyond their comfort zones, allows them to be challenges and find new solutions. I mean, so if you've set that up, you've set the culture up where you know, you're all working on your strengths, and everybody's strengths are front and clear, and people understand what they bring to the table. And then you know, you're delegating things to them that are in line with their strengths. You have a well oiled machine, you have a function Team, you're going to get great results. But if you're sort of like just simply, you know, throwing things out there, without necessarily taking that into consideration, you're delegating, but nothing's gonna happen, it's gonna lead to more frustration, those things are not going to get done. Because you're telling people to do things that they don't know how to do. And even if they do, they're not their strengths. And oftentimes, the things which are not people's strengths are also not in line with their passion. And so it's, it's a problem. And so I think I think you set up the right culture, where people sort of talk up, I mean, you know, oftentimes the the good sign that you've set this up, right, and I've had this many times, in my teams, is when you assign something to somebody, they come back and say, No, I don't think I can do that. Well. And that's what you should be hearing, which is, like, you know, I don't think that's something I could do really well. And you would know right away that that's a faulty delegation, right there, you're asking somebody to do something that they're not really good at? And if you have the right culture, people speak up, and they bring that to your attention. And then you of course, correct, and you assign it to somebody else. And that's what you need to do, eventually.

I think that's, that's an awesome point, right? The culture of just being brutally honest, like as, as a team, you know, with your your boss, if you will, to say, Yeah, I see why you pointed that at me. But the reality is, like, that's not my thing, right? Like, I'm not going to be good at it, it's not going to be successful. We, versus I've been in the room, and I've been guilty of this, you know, both giving and receiving the saying, Well, look, here's our team, we got four people, and you know, this is the this is the task that we need accomplished. Person A over here, you're the most aligned with the output of what I'm looking for. Therefore, this is all you, you know, like, you've got the best shot of anybody on the team. And in rarely, you know, one that I pushed back enough when I was in the seat or two, you know, do people say like, no, like, that's not, that's not going to be a good, this is not going to be a good fit, you know, we've gotten them when it's way out in the field. But you know, to your point, you've got to create a culture where somebody feels comfortable saying no to their superior, this is this is not going to be good.

And say that without without necessarily the feeling of being felt judged. Yeah. I'm just I just told my boss, I'm not good at something. Exactly. That's what you should be doing. If you have the right culture and organization should be telling your superior, I'm not good at this, by the way, you know, what I'm good at. That's what I should be doing. And I mean, I think that's, that's, that's a culture that absolutely needs to exist, if you want to get those results.

That's, that's an I keep that one with me. That's a good one. I guess taking it to a different level, right, let's, let's go in on something that like you've been a leader, you've sat in the seat, and you're going through a massive transformation. So let's say that you went you, I'll give you some examples of what I'm asking for, like, you're a small organization, and you've been doing like hand to hand combat on sales. And you're going to now launch in multiple states, multiple platforms, and you got to bring somebody in for the first time that's going to take you to that next level, or you know, your finance department. You've been on QuickBooks, and everybody's kind of got a working knowledge of how QuickBooks works. But you're really gonna, you're moving to an ER p system that's kind of fully automated in the background. And you got to bring in a team of people that are going to help you get from, you know, your humble beginnings to kind of where you're going. And you know, you as the leader in that seat, that's not your thing. If you could do it, you probably would have done it already. But you can't. But you're you're making a massive investment here. And you've got to get the results for this thing to work for you. And it can't You can't just hope you know that this is like mission critical for your business, right? if this fails, like the business may may go out, how do you manage that process, when it's not your area of success, or your area of focus or where you're, you know, you'd be successful. But you bring it in teams, it's a massive investment, you got to watch it, but you also got to let these people do their thing.

Yeah, I mean, look, I mean, first off, your team needs to live and breathe your vision without necessarily being reliant on fancy corporate benefits to keep them excited, right? I mean, if you don't have that, then you have a much bigger problem. And you can't motivate performance. With the prospect of big cash bonuses or more vacation time or pushy benefits package. You think you can, but you can't and and the Want to get motivated, but those things are the wrong kind of team members, we need to hire team members that complement your skill set and are just as hungry for change as you are. And you need to make sure that you know your change aligns. And that change aligns with your vision. And so I think that's the key is like, you know, when you're, you know, you're you're hiring, for that hunger and for passion for that change, you're aligning your team towards that vision. So you're marching towards that, that that goal of Okay, we're going to change the world here, we're going to have an impact, we're going to go have, you know, go build this out, which hasn't been built before, something that hasn't been built before. You know, you need to find people who believe in that vision who believe in that in that goalpost and are just as hungry to see that change happen as you are. And then once you've sort of achieved that, you're on your way, if you can't achieve it, you're not going to get there to these other leagues, you can't sort of just say, Hey, I'm gonna hire you, I'm going to give you a lot of money. And I'm going to expect all these results from you. Because it's just a job from for them at the end of the day. So I think I think that alignment is really how you do it. You know, whether, you know, it's especially true for that one or two key individuals and your your first deep call need to be aligned, not most of them, not one or two of them, all of them need to be aligned, every every last person on that, that the first level team that needs to be aligned towards your vision.

That's exciting. Yeah, I like where you went with that. It's just to say, it's not about can you find somebody that's got the right resume, or the background? Or, you know, yes, it might be expensive, and everything looks right, you've got to walk away with the feeling that they get where you're going. And not only that, but are like truly excited, and willing to take do whatever it takes to get there. In line with with the vision, your vision, the vision of the company, the vision of the founders. And that's really the benchmark, that's the barrier to entry to even be considered.

Yep, it is. Absolutely. I mean, that is, I mean, that's the minimum criteria for qualification to be on that team. Is that alignment, everything else is secondary.

Okay. So then taken and taken up a different level. So like, let's say, you're going to hire a service provider to do work for you Same, same, similar kind of scenario, but like you're bringing in a team of consultants, they're gonna come in, and they're gonna leave. Do you have to have that same feeling with them? Or do you just want to find somebody that like, been there done that we know it? We've got it? Or how do you balance the two?

You got to think long term, right? I mean, I've had a been in many situations where of how hired a specialist or service provider, somebody who, you know, is like a hired gun, not really a core member of your team. And they become the core member of the team down the line. Oftentimes, relationships start that way, especially, you know, when you have that marriage between alignment of vision and skills, and when you have both, you want them permanently, you want them in your team, and they want to be part of your team just as bad. Because of the alignment of vision, just like you know, that's something I really believe in, let's go team up and work together on this. And so I think, I think you do it all the time. You do it every time. I mean, and it should almost become it should be a religion, which is like, you know, I'm going to work with people who, you know, sort of take the same way about what we're trying to do, and not just here offering specific aspects of their skills. And I think I think that needs to be really sort of seeped in. Yeah, that one.

That one's pretty, pretty intense for me, because I've taken the approach in the past of hiring, I was specifically looking for a provider that been there done that and could do it in their sleep. And the net result at times or almost every time was just kind of lackluster, you know, it's like yeah, maybe we checked all the boxes. But this isn't this isn't really the vision I had for this and yeah, I was hoping that you would bring more to the table in terms of like your excitement envision as opposed to just saying, Okay, yeah, we had all the all the checked all the boxes on the scope of services so that your your point is well taken, and I'll remember that one for a while too. Even if they're outside, you need them to have the same enthusiasm as if they're on your team. Because that's what's ultimately going to get you to where you're going. And that's your vision. And it's not just a check the box exercise.

Yeah, I mean, I think that outside inside was more of a, you know, operational paperwork aspect of things. They're working together, you're on the inside, right? So it could be agency that you're working with. Or it could be a contractor for hire, or it could be, you know, just a vendor that you're partnering up with, for working together, you're inside. That's how we treat it. That's how we mean, we rarely I mean, and that's a risk, you got to take me, the service providers and the agencies that I work with. They know just as much about what we are up against what we're doing our gooery challenges in turn as internal employees do. We trust them. And they trust us. I mean, just because it's an external agency doesn't necessarily, you know, make it any different. And then they work as such, we work as an internal team, the fact that, you know, we're not hiring full time employees, doesn't matter. I mean, full time employees change. I mean, you have an employee today, and the person is allowed, but if you're working together and working together, no matter what.

Yeah, that's, I think that's the quote, if you're working together, you're on the inside, he's, I have to just take that mentality to everything that you're doing. Okay. So, you have a mentor?

I've, you know, I've had a few mentors over the course of my career. Absolutely. And I think, you know, but I think, you know, for the most part, being mentored is an organic effort, in my opinion, I mean, you know, you try to learn from everybody around yourself. And so for me, it's like, you know, it's about creating a feedback structure. I mean, startup culture is all about flatten hierarchies anyways. So to pivot quickly, because information flows, it's in play in all directions, but then, you know, then, you know, you need to sort of balance that with, you know, creating a culture where, you know, maybe you get too much feedback, but you need to also sort of learn from everybody. I mean, you know, you get some of the best advice and feedback you'll receive comes from your immediate teams, and they're in the trenches with you every day. And, you know, also your your customers and your other fellow fellow entrepreneurs. And so you kind of sort of build that feedback structure, you get a lot of mentoring, you know, along that way along along that direction.

Yeah, I totally agree. I think sometimes the formality of what you consider a mentor versus almost having a mentor in network, and you know, who to call. Yep. Who's got your back, like you mentioned earlier in the podcast is spot on? And I guess, do you do you mentor? Do you you have others that you provide that same level of kind of support that you're looking for?

Yeah, I mean, I frequently, you know, have people reach out to me, most of them are really, really young entrepreneurs, young people who, you know, just personally reach out, and they want to talk and I, I absolutely find time for that. You know, I'd say, you know, we've had many zoom meetings with young people are doing exciting things, and they continue to stay in touch. And I think it's also kind of I ended up end up learning a lot from those interactions as well. I mean, I think the goal is to teach, but you're, you know, you're looking at new ways of doing things and newer perspectives. And so it's a two way street. So yeah, absolutely. I mean, I do mentor I do it quite frequently.

Yeah, I think that's a common trait of everybody I talked to is that the folks that are kind of cross this chasm that we're talking about here, give back, but they also get, right. It's not a let me just sit on my soapbox and tell you, you know, all the wonderful things that you know, you should know. So you can be great, too. It's okay. You know, this is a great conversation. haven't thought of it that way. Like there's, there's there's give and take even in the mentor mentee relationship. So I think that's totally. Okay. So the final question, if you could go back in time and tell your younger self one key piece of advice, one, when would you go back? And then to what would that advice be?

I would go as far back as my high school years. And the one piece of advice I would give myself is go play it too safe. It's not worth the risk.

That's awesome. Ronna Thank you. This has been incredible. have learned a lot. I appreciate your time. Thanks, Jake. for having me. That concludes this week's show. Thanks for listening. Please leave a review on your favorite podcast platform or directly on the site. Your comments are truly appreciated, good, bad or indifferent, and we'll help make the show better. This is Jake Wiley with Wiley on business and we'll talk again in two weeks.