Xander Schultz

Hello and welcome to Wiley on Business a podcast where we explore how individuals and companies make dramatic breakthroughs in transforming their businesses from a job to an enterprise with real value by enabling others to realize their full potential by being crystal clear on the vision of the business. My name is Jake Wiley and over my nearly two decades of business experience and client service owning a business as well as being a CFO, I've had the opportunity to see the difference between slugging it out to stay above water and exponential growth. On this podcast, I interview amazing leaders who have figured it out to get their perspectives on how they do it, and share it with you. This week, we are joined by Sandra scholtes, a social entrepreneur impact investor, and activists focused on maximizing the freedom of press people, and elevating changemakers. in Silicon Valley, Zander helped found two consumer tech companies cafe which is acquired by Google and complete, which are social platforms dedicated to helping people help each other. In 2017, he joined Mike Novogratz family offices to entrepreneur residents, and he continues to organize donor networks. Welcome, Zander, thank you so much for making the time to be with us today. I think this will be really exciting. I know you've, you've gotten a little bit of a background on my thesis, that, you know, true business success comes through the ability to transition kind of through this one man show to relying on others, to kind of help you get to the other side. So you know, my gonna kind of talk through some of your stories, you know, hopefully, it's, you know, we get to see the human in you too, right? Because it is a journey. And it's not something that you just miraculously do. So we'll kind of go back and forth of where you're successful and where you weren't. But you are ready to dive in? Let's do it. Awesome. So I guess first question is, how important to the level of success success that you currently have, would you say is really directly related to the impact of other people?

You know, I would say 100% is is, is connected to the impact of other people, I think the only thing I've I've done, right, that is somewhat unique is I announced everything I'm trying to do in the world, without the fear that people will hold me accountable to that and look at me as a failure, if it doesn't happen. So I'm just hyper gregarious with all the things I'm trying have happened in the world, and, you know, and trying to build and whatnot. And what I've learned is that people are really excited to help other people build and and to, you know, be a part of journeys. And so by just being like, aggressively vocal about my ambitions, as so many people have made, things happen for me very, very little in my life has happened because of really smart strategy. on my end, it's really been a sequence of sharing, sharing with others and them being strategic and connecting me to the right folks, whether it's, you know, you, me, and you even having this conversation, right. And me talking to our mutual friend Cynthia about the things that I want to talk about and doing the world. And, you know, here we are chatting, so that might be more philosophical than what you meant by the question, but but I can own very little of my success.

Now, I think I think that's really fascinating, because there's so many people, especially in the entrepreneurial world, you know, they're out there, like looking for VC, and they feel like they got to hold on to their idea so tightly, right? Like, don't tell anybody, you know, like, if somebody's gonna steal it, and I actually, I'm a lot like you, like, I believe that one, if I have a passion, that's something that's going to work for me, like, I can tell everybody because nobody else is me. And they're not going to carry that same passion. And to I think, like, it's magnetism kind of brings, it brings the right people into your life, right? When we talk about what's out there. I guess, is there any, like specific example that that you have that

you're not sure, I'm also probably not smart enough to have the type of ideas that are that are like, you know, worth stealing in terms of like, I've cracked the code, and there's some algorithm and now I know that no one else can know and whatnot, right? I'm more I'm more of the social engineering and social networking, you know, variety of ideas anyways, and, and even, even so many of my initial initiatives I'm trying to put forth into the world they're so impact oriented that like, a theft, honestly, I wouldn't be upset about a theft things have been stolen before in terms of ideas and or iterated on and worked on. And the cool thing about working in the impact oriented space is that, like, you want to be successful, but hopefully, if you're coming from the right place you want, you want the thing to exist and to be available, you know to folks, and so on That also probably makes me a little less protective of my ideas, although that probably prescribes or prescribes a little more strategy. Thinking about, I'm reflecting on it now, I'm sure I mean, look, one of my startups, it wasn't a great success. But it had some serious traction, it was a fun ride to go on was a company called complete, which was a, we were basically socialized to dues. And so it's funny, it's very meta conversation, because the whole thing was about socializing your future intentions, right startup was, but it didn't start that way. It started as like a kind of simple idea to be able to quickly add your tasks to your calendar, like, Oh, just a pure productivity app. And I brought it to my friend, Effie eventually became my co founder. And he was like, you know, this is good. But like, check out Venmo and Venmo, had just come out and show me the feet of me, like, this is BS. But it's, uh, but it's interesting. It's like the activity of people. And it's like the current or like, even future activity because of paying for a service later. And there's something really interesting about future intentions, and the ways folks can participate. Anyways, it launched us into this whole, like, new theory around what this company can be, and what social networks can be, and the value of connectivity. And, and anyways, whatever, I almost built a really dumb app, I was gonna, cause you know, 199 at the store, I was probably gonna pay 20 grand to have it built. And that was a, and like, I got to go on this a year journey, building this, like, Cool social network and learning about it and raising venture capital and having these really cool co founders that I learned from, and, yeah, I carry that experience with me. So very, and then funding even from that initiative, I was grabbing coffee with my neighbor who happened to be like an associate at a venture capital firm. And I was telling him about this, he's like, Whoa, this is really cool. You know, and you should come in and talk to my partners, I went in and got a half a million dollar commitment to launch this thing, talking to him. So it's not like I did your, you know, deep, deep investigation into who are the VCs that are right for this, etc, I had coffee, part of that, you know, I've got, I've got an amend What I'm saying is being like just drowning in privilege were the types of folks who go have coffee with are also the type of folks that work at a venture capital firm, right, and, and so that's not, that's not normal for everyone, right, especially if you're coming from certain backgrounds, that those people aren't just immediately in your network. Although I'll say the only thing I've probably been intentional about, is anytime I have people like that in my life, becoming friends with them, learning from them, and meeting their friends, and just trying to increase that network that allows me to do things quickly and be impactful when I do do them. That's,

I think that's great. Indeed, I think what's for me, right? It's been a long journey, you know, 20 years to probably figure out that like talking to people, and like sharing ideas and like almost kind of like masterminding with other folks is is so powerful. But Brian, you was it? Was it natural? I mean, you almost seem like you got the personality where, like, that's just who you are, or did you have like some moment in time or like, wait, man, this is, this is how you connect with people. This is how you make it work.

A couple things. I think once it's natural, and I love talking to folks about not just what I'm working on what they're working on, where we intersect all that type of stuff, too. I've met enough successful people to not believe that like bs myth that like the reason Apple's great Steve Jobs was in his room thinking for a bit about like, the benefits of curved, curved corners, whatever the hell else. Yeah. And so, and I get why we tell them, it's like, people interview me now. Like, had to do it. And it's like, really fun to be like, Well, let me tell you about my genius. It's just a story that like keeps being repeated. Because it feels good when someone says it about you. And it's good for you, when people are saying it about you. In a way that's, you know, not true about just like, Oh, yeah, you know, it's just who you know, and you know, if you know the right people in the right space, yeah. And and you have the energy for something, things happen pretty quickly. And you know, you have an open, open idea about how partnerships can be made and not not being too greedy about sharing whatever you're doing with, you know, with other folks and inviting other people into your journey. That's just a less attractive story to tell. Right? Right. And does a lot less like, you know, validation for you and so, so I don't think we tell it even though it's the it's the truth. So, so anyways, long story short, I guess. One I'm already kind of like that, too. I've been around enough successful people and saw how their lives worked and how when they had an idea things just happened because it picked up the phone made five calls and those people made five calls and then you know, all sudden had a company or an initiative or whatever it was, and so so just the luck of being around other successful people, which helped demystify some some of the BS you hear about how things happen.

Yeah, so let's let's, let's actually demystify a little bit more here for a second. So it's not all like rainbows and sunshine, like so there's times where you got it wrong, right? Like, is there a specific example of where you like you just did it wrong? Or like you tried to do it all yourself? Or, you know, like any lessons learned kind of along the way,

you know, what's like, What's nice about school that you don't get in life is, you know, you can get a grade in school, you can get an A plus, and you did the whole thing you did as well as you could possibly do, you know, on that assignment, and in life, you just don't get that assurance, like even the things I did, right, I might have done wrong, right? I'm running this like voting initiative. Right? Now, we've raised a good deal of money for these organizers. But there's certainly a voice in my head, that's like, I wonder if a better entrepreneur was in the seat, you know, how would they? What would they have raised? You know, what would they have done here? What would they miss? I wonder if someone was a little harder working? You know, would they made more calls would they have done x, y, z. So it's, even if you can, like, you know, from a bar, say, Oh, that was a win, you know, a lot of things played out for me to help that become a win. And, you know, maybe someone who's a little more ambitious, or strategic or whatnot, you know, could have could have made things happen, you know, at an accelerated pace, maybe the same could have been 10x, when it was, so it's hard in life. To know, I know, when I failed, that stuff becomes very clear, it's hard to know, even when you know, you've truly succeeded, and been a good shepherd to like some sort of initiative. I mean, you know, that same startup was a good example of me not being hyper transparent with my investors, and like, not welcoming them in to my problems and leveraging their their knowledge and skill set and connections, and wanting to present. Good news. Yeah. And, and that was also, that was, that was a myth, you know, you should be using transparency and honesty and like leading with what you don't know, what you're not sure about, is how folks can help how folks can really help. You know, and I certainly wasn't great at that. During that initiative, I wanted to bring good news, I wanted to tell them, everything was good. And I want them to cut that next check. And believe in me as an entrepreneur as a competent entrepreneur. And it's easier, like it's easier for me to do that now. Because I have some wins under my belt, and people know me for certain things. And so I can be a little more vulnerable than when you're younger or less accomplished. And you've got, you can't point to other things to say no, I am competent. Look at this track record over here I am copying. So again, that lesson to apply that lesson, you also have to be at a point of some sort of privilege, to be able to to apply it but even still, even still, even if I didn't have the confidence to to lead with that level of transparency and vulnerability I still should have. So I think that's a that's a good lesson. Because when it came time to present some bad news, and it was a little too late, and I need funds quickly. It only hurt me and hurt my relationships with all those, all those people. So I forgiven myself since then. Right? It's you know, 2028 year old entrepreneur, but I think it's that was big, it's one thing to lead with what you want to do, it's another thing to lead like vulnerably. And I've been trying to apply that ever since.

Yeah, that's, that's, that's really interesting, too. Because like you think about, especially if you if it's your first venture, and you're going out there and like you feel like it's you against the world, right? And you've got to present this like amazing case. And it's beautiful. And you've thought of every contingency. And then you know, you kind of if you listen to the Masters that are actually investing, they're actually saying like, you know what, I'm picking a person, more so than your actual this idea. Like, we want to know that, like, we're kind of Betting on you. And I think when you when you let the the guards down and say, Hey, I don't have all the answers earlier. You know, to your point, like being a little bit more vulnerable. Like that only enhances your brand. Whereas I think most people just kind of feel like it's, it's, you know, it's got to be perfect. Like, this is what I promised, I promised this like perfect path to like, absolute success. And like, that's one lot of these people that are putting their money up have been there before and they'd rather know early than later, because they may have the right connections to help you. But I think that's I think that's so interesting. Like, you know, you are human. Yeah. And I think that's what makes makes the big difference too. Is that I guess you've had you've had successful ventures already. Right? You're in the midst of something right now. And like you're you're having human conversations in your brain, like, did I get up early enough? Like, could I make enough calls and somebody else be better at this than me, you know, and it's like, right. I think that's kind of the fire. So I think that's a really, I think that's cool, man.

Yeah, thanks, man. I do think Yeah, I do think like in lieu of having a long relationship with folks born Ability kinda like allows for that trust, you know, if you're just vulnerable and upfront, it allows you to build that trust. And that's really like, honestly, a lot of like, what investors need is like, I need to, I need to like what you're telling me, and then I need to trust you that it's true, right? Like, there's a lot of things you just don't know, I need to trust you that that metric is the right metric to gauge success, I need to trust you that these other people said they're coming in on the round and whatnot, too. And so, so a lot of people you mean, especially in our you know, crazy society, you mean a lot of people for the first or second or 10th time. And so that vulnerability also allows for a level of trust that usually, you know, you need a few years to build up?

Well, let's, let's flip the script, right? Like, let's, let's take it to your more superhuman side and say, like, what's, what's an example of when you did it? Right? Right. And you're like, man, like, we were running on all cylinders here, like, I was in the right mindset, like I got the right people in line, and what are the lessons that you learn there?

So there's an initiative that we started in March, called one for democracy. And we were basically asking wealthy people to give 1% of their net assets to democratic infrastructure. Democratic isn't democracy, not necessarily the political party, to make sure that America was able to show up and vote in what we consider probably the most important election of our lifetime. And to date, we've raised just under $70 million, since we launched it in March, but really, it was then COVID hit so it was on pause until May. So since May, we've raised about $70 million. My partners on that project, my partner, my core co founder on that project, who's who's works with me at this foundation we both work at is named Billy Waterson. He has like this insane work ethic and stubbornness, that I just don't, I just, I can't replicate it, right? The guy was like an NCAA wrestler. He just lives for this, right? He's got all the energy. And, and it's just inherent in him. It's like, don't, don't quit, keep beating the pavement thing. And I think just me knowing what I'm good at, which is like dreaming up interesting ideas, like laying the groundwork, and getting the initial people really excited about it. And you know, what, I'm maybe not fantastic at that. And certainly not as good as like, really, really good managers, which is like, you know, you got to eat, you're like, you know, vegetables you got to do, you got to do the same you think same thing every day. And I, I constantly want to iterate on it, even if it's working, I want to iterate because that's what's exciting to me. And you know, he'll bring me back home be like, Hey, this is working, you know, we just got to keep doing this thing, even though it's what we did yesterday, we got to do it again today. And so, anyways, it's been this overwhelming success. You know, we shouldn't for $100 million raised by the election, who knows if we'll get there, but it was always kind of a shoot shoot for the stars to land on the moon, people told us if we raised 5 million, we'd be a success. And so just a good example of you know, that with that vulnerability, you know, when you start speaking vulnerably and when you start, you know, knowing yourself, you'll also know where your holes are, you know, a little bit better, you know, as as a professional, not that you shouldn't work on those, but also it helps inform what kind of partners you should bring on what kind of projects you know, need certain folks that you're probably not going to be an A plus team member, when it comes to, you know, certainly, you know, that when you scale already, you know, you've got to hire folks when you scale, but even in the beginning, like having him as a team member, made all the difference in terms of this thing, even even getting started to be honest, like I liked as an idea, March and COVID. And I'm like, no one's gonna donate anything. It's over. He's like, No, no, we got it. We got to, you know, keep giving this thing ago. And, you know, I'm happy he pushed us. Because, you know, that's probably the biggest one of my career to date. Is this initiative, you know, in terms of traction in terms of impact, etc. And it's defining is really, you know, be cut because of this guy. And so that was It's funny how those one decisions make a difference, right? Like, it's like, forget everything else that happened. That's the other thing you like, never hear in the success turnings is like look, the story stops if I don't partner with this guy. Like that's the end of the story. Sure. Other things happen along the way. And the story never even like there's nothing that happens after this if I don't make the decision. You know that that? Yeah, I should hit my whatever that saying is hitched my wagon to is Right, right. Yeah,

man, that's First of all, like that's that's super impressive. Like you think about you COVID March timeframe like the world shut down. In that period of time since then, you guys have raised $70 million people thought you'd be a rock star. Have you raised five? Like, that's fantastic. And I mean, I think it's it's also like super cool. And I think this is part of, you know, part of my thesis here is that like, you know where the credit's due, like, in this process, yeah, you had a great idea. Your idea magnetized and brought the right people in, but like, you got this guy, he was able to kind of like fill in and like, yeah, I think a lot of like young or budding entrepreneurs also, like, feel like they have to have this persona. Like, they got it all. And when you present that way, people don't know how they can help you. Right? You

know, people know you don't have it all. Just like, it's it goes the other way. You build distress? Yeah, you feel like you're building trust, because you're impressive. It's like, but you're in a way you're building distress. Like, what do you not show me man? That's right. That's right. Especially for 28. Come on. Like, we know what it's like to be that you're impressive in that young?

So I think for you, was there like a specific point where like, it all kind of started to click that it's like, yeah, it is these relationships? It is these other people? Or was it this gradual process? You know, because I think that that's, that's where a lot of us are struggling with is like, how do we get from? You know, how do I get out my own way?

Yeah. Yeah, I think a little bit of it was that it's, it's a mix of like, it's relationships, and you learn on the fly kind of those two things. Like, you're never gonna be prepared for whatever's coming anyways, not that you should be unprepared, you know, like, you should, you should you take on take on things you think you can do, okay, you know, and learn directly, but it's just like, getting prepared from educating or reading or taking classes or whatnot. It's just like, it's just never, it's just No, you're gonna learn 1/100 of what you're going to learn on the fly, you know, in a week, just because you have to, there's like this forcing mechanism that doesn't exist, otherwise, and world is changing so fast. You know, even folks who did like I'm doing this selection work, folks who did well, four years ago, it's a different world, like, Well, you know, oh, wow, I didn't think about that this could be effective, whatever it is, right? Giving circles or I have another initiative called defeat by tweet that's like, you know, has its own has its own, you know, story. And it's been pretty successful as well. And, and, you know, there's folks from move on these other words that I'm consulting with, it's just like, you know, they're really impressed by it. And they weren't thought of it, you know, because they were going by rulebook from four years ago. And so I guess, those two things of like, things get easier. I, one of the reasons I learned that things are hard when you don't know anyone is also like, you know, one of my first startups, I didn't come from an Ivy League school, I didn't have warm intros to all these venture capitalists. And I learned in a very harsh way, you know, that the world runs on these warm intros, if you don't have them, you know, you're not going to cold email your way into, you know, into success, you've got to, you've got to have, that's the other type of trust, we're talking about. There's that vulnerability trust. And there's also like that warm introduction trust, of like, this guy who I like, you know, knows him and knows him to be a good person or an honest person or whatnot. And so, so that was a roundabout way of saying warm introductions and learn learning in a real environment and just throwing yourself out there and failing people have more forgiveness for failures than you think they do. You know, people really appreciate people put themselves out there, even if it's, if you completely burn the place down in the process, as long as you're honest, and you're learning, you know, when, when you talk about the initiative, you're not, yeah, talking it up and saying, Oh, we killed it. Like, hey, right. Yeah, we made some bad calls on this one. You know, people, people appreciate that. And so so those are probably the two things I've learned over the last few years here.

Okay, so I'm gonna unpack that. I heard two things. I thought, like, what you're saying is super important. I just want to kind of like, clarify what I heard and make sure I'm okay,

I'm the king of digression. So sorry, if

this is this is awesome sauce. This is awesome. Right? So, one you just talked about as like warm introductions, right? And I think that, that's, that's all about, like building relationships, right? That's, it's about having an indirect, right? It's like, you don't know the right VC guy. But if you've got great relationships with people, they may know the right people. But like, you got to focus on building those right relationships all the time. Yeah, you know, and like, those are the way that's how you're gonna knock. That's how you're gonna knock on the door, right? You're gonna come in with a warm intro. So that relationship is super important. So that that's, that's great. I didn't really contemplate that in my question. So thank you. And

if I can amend that it's funny, like you're helping me get to a thesis around trust. It's really interesting. But if I can amend that to all my relationships, no, I'm the type of person that will help. Now, every time I meet someone, ask them what I can do with them to help them succeed, like, what are they passionate about? What's their personal mission? How can I help them succeed? I'm lucky to be in a position where I can usually do something about that. But that that builds on itself, right. And so one of the reasons people are so willing to make introductions to me is they know a, I'll do that for their friend. And B, I helped them out, you know, hopefully, I helped them out on on one of their endeavors, not just a endeavor, but like something aligned with their personal mission. And so that reciprocity is really important to build, I don't do it in a strategic way I do it, because I believe it's the right way to engage with people, but the world would be fine. If everyone did it strategically to it's a better world, everyone. Does it from like a non altruistic place.

Yeah. Do you keep score? I mean, he expected return favor? Are you just like, Look, this is me, this is authentically me. Like I

never I don't think I keep score, although I do say, like, optimize for meeting really interesting people. And really interesting people have really interesting networks, right? It's not like, I'm trying to meet any, I'm just showing up at the grocery store. And what's your mission? How can I help? So I try to be you know, I tried to be intentional about the types of folks I'm colliding with. But I'm also you know, someone who just feels really lucky to be able to accelerate other people's mission. So it's not like, I'm always optimizing for, you know, ultra high net worth people or whatever it is. So I guess there's a, there's a minimal strategy in there of just trying to be interesting, folks.

Right. Right. I think that's, I think that's on point. So the other thing that I heard, which I think is super important is like just doing it, right? Like, you're like a fan of action. It's like, you got a mission, you believe in your mission. And you like, start taking steps and just making it happen. And then as a result, like you're finding the right people are showing up into your lives. And you're, you're learning the lessons quickly along the way, as opposed to trying to build something that's perfect.

Yeah, look, there's a currency around. People underestimate serendipity. Like, they just totally underestimate serendipity. They think it's, you know, all about pulling the bow back real tight, and taking that one shot and it lands. You throw yourself out there, you don't know where you're gonna land, but man, things happen. Yeah, just like, if you throw yourself, you might think you're starting a company and someone's like, Dude, this company already exists, it's over here, it's incredible. Maybe you go work for that company. Because it's like, what you want to be a part of anyways, right? It's just like, it doesn't mean always start something, it's just like, always have, you know, always have momentum. You know, and, and with that momentum, other people want to be a part of that, you know, especially if it's mission aligned, people can feel that two people want to do things that haven't, you know, integrity, it's not everyone's doing things with integrity in the world. And some of that's not their fault. You know, they're not in an economic position to pursue something or they're at a certain life stage where they have obligations or whatnot. So people want to be part of stories, you know, that are exciting. And, you know, their, their way of being a participant sometimes is just sharing some information or making an introduction for you to

Yeah, that's, that's, that's amazing how well that aligns to my next question is, like, what do you think the biggest barrier? Or like, Where have you struggled? Or like, what's the best way to get other people aligned with your mission? Right? Because like, I think what we're saying is, we're attracting people in through good relationships and serendipity. And then they got to see your vision. And then they got to, like, they got to get on board like 100%, right? It can't just be willy nilly. Like, where's that gone sideways?

You know, I don't I don't know if I see it quite like that. It's okay, look, if I'm right, we just take what I'm spending my time on right now, if I'm about democracy, and you hear about the climate, we need climate people. We need people to like, I don't want to drag you into my democracy, maybe there's a way for us to plug in, because I'm like, hey, this guy needs to win for a better climate. Right now. climate policy, tap. And so maybe there's a way we combine that way. But the world needs a lot of people doing a lot of things, if we're gonna make this place better. And so, um, so I don't I don't see there's no part and maybe this comes from a place of like, privilege, right? I get to meet like, unlimited cool people. This time. It's just like, it's just the life I've been, you know, I'm I'm living it's ridiculously lucky. Right? I'm on and so, you know, it's a little different. if maybe you meet the one rich guy that you've ever met, and you need you need this guy to say yes, because it's the seed capital, you're not getting the seed capital. But even if that's the case, I still think people feel so much like, hey, I want you to do something that's totally aligned with you know, the type of journey you're trying to have. You know, is this a fit? Now is it Do you know, anyone who this is a fit for, you know, like those follow ups? Yeah, really. Big and being like, cool. Do you know who in your world you think would love this? Right would love to be a part of this? I always, always include that in my conversations. And people are usually when you when you ask who would love to be a part of this? You know, they're doing their friend a favor. They're not doing you a favor, right? They're doing them a favor. They're all me and Mike, my guy has been going nuts about this 2020 election. He's been looking for somewhere to plug in. Oh, man, I'm so happy I met you late. Yeah, let me connect you. And so I think just continuing to come from places service, whether it's serving them or serving folks in their network. You know, people are ambitious they have, we're not that smart. Even if you think you're really smart. I guess some people from doing stuff they don't want to do, right, you know, and so, and so everyone's got their own agenda, and they've got their own thing. And trust me, by the way, as someone who pitch people maybe got them in invest in something they don't feel good about. You feel terrible about bringing those people along, you know, if it goes south, right? Yeah, if you sold them in a way that felt disingenuous, or, you know, over over over, sold them on what the outcome will be, or they should get involved because of this, like financial outcome and not because of the ride your tip that's on you, you're gonna feel terrible. You're you're gonna deal with employees not motivated, because this isn't really what they wanted to do, right? Yep. And so I almost don't believe in telling people, you know, you should share from your heart, why you're in something. And you should get to know them and see if there's an alignment there and see if they know other folks that are aligned in that way. But I don't know, I don't know if I have the thesis that I need to like sell people on my mission. Okay.

So let's take we'll dive in a little bit further there is that when you think about bringing people in, like we've talked about trust, we've talked about mission, we've talked about having like, just key people that have just, you know, kind of taken it and run with it? How do you get to that level of trust with people, right? Because you find yourselves in a situation, especially when you're when you're growing a business where like, you've got your hands on everything, you know, you you know what's happening. But you finally find somebody you think, can can take it up a notch, right? Like, they're actually gonna take it up a level, but you've actually got to, like, trust them enough to like, take your hands off. Mm hmm. And let them do their thing. But at the same time, not just let them run, you know, wild, right? And then like, you come back two weeks, and you're like, What just happened? Like, how do you how do you manage that? Right? Because I think that is, you know, for growing businesses, like, That's such a key moment in time where you take your hands off, and you're like, it's your time to shine, man. But you can't just like, let it go. Right? Because you just don't know what you're gonna come back to.

Yeah, I don't know, I guess. It's just like a extended, like, extending the check in experience. So you start out with dailies, you know, and then you move to weeklies, and then if they're high up in your staff, you check it in once a month. And as quickly as you can get into results oriented management and not and not, you know, time oriented or time spent on it, or whatever, you know, have them have them define what success is also school, what do you think's a win for this product? Okay, what do you think's a win for next week? Gotcha. You can agree or disagree, maybe disagree, right? Or you want to push back on that. Right? And then like, and then you know, they're accountable to themselves and their own words, and not necessarily you? Right? Yeah. Cool. Yeah. I mean, you said it, you said we were supposed to be at here. We didn't get here. Why was it bad projection? Should we readjust that or what happened along the way? And so. So I think there's a lot of implicit trust, when you're letting folks define what success is, like I said, they can't say anything, you've got to you got to, you know, if you don't feel like that's gonna get the company or the, or the initiative where they go, you got to push back and be like, it's not enough, right? We need to we need to get here. I mean, that starts also, when you're even hiring for the role, like, Hey, here's, you know, what do you think successes for this role, and you have in your head when successes, but I think a mix of letting them define success and being accountable themselves. And then like, you know, lengthening out the period of check in times as they hit, as they've proved to be trustworthy. It's like, Oh, well, you know, you did yesterday said you're gonna do it today. You did today. You did. Yeah. You said you were gonna do last week? You did? You did it. Great. Yeah. And so I think between those two strategies, it's an easy way to kind of automate trust.

Yeah, I think I like that idea. Right. So you start, you start like high touch, right? And then it's just kind of like working through this. It's almost like you're establishing and building trust and letting that letting it go longer and longer. And then you're focused more on the results. And as long as you're getting the results and everybody's aligned, like you're finding success, and you're probably I know my car. Like, I've found that when I've given people a little more elation, they're probably, you know, expecting at the right moment in time. Like, they just really shine, right? Like, they knock my socks off, because they're like, Oh my God, this guy totally trust me, like, I'm gonna, I'm not gonna let him down. You know. And then the other side is that there's, you know, there's folks out there that always have that like Pollyanna view of things, right? So, you know, we talked about this early on, where it's like, I only want to tell you good news, right? Like, I gotta spin the story where it's good. And it's like, you making sure that you've got your vision and understanding like, what are these metrics that we're really reporting on? are we are we are we actually moving this ball forward? Are you just like telling me stories around? Yeah, the goal here, which is, which is interesting.

Well, that's why KPIs are so important to right. That's what I'm saying. It's like, get to results oriented, whatever it is get to results oriented work relatively quickly, and key performance indicators. And then, and then just have the conversation be around that. Because like, you could probably still tell story. It's like I told you, maybe 100, we got 280. I think whatever the number unit is that we're using there, right? But right, we got to 80. But here's, here's why it's still a good thing. You know, you can, there's you sure you can tell a story, but it's like, well, then why did you say 100? Right? If it was if 80 is good, you know, or if 80 you're excited about you said it's a homerun. Why do we say 100? words? Good, just good last week, right? Right. And so just taking, like, taking the storytelling aspect out of it and trying to get to like some, some type of metric and, and, and stick it sticking to those things and having the expert, your expert, whoever they are defined those things, I think is important. Awesome. Okay. So let's talk about, by the way, I'm doing about half of these things right now, as I'm saying, like, I'm applying like a quarter of these concepts. It's just so easy for them to like, you know, fall by the wayside as you're doing all these things. Yeah, I'm recording. I'm like, shit, I need to get back to that.

Oh, man, how about let's talk about mentors. You have a mentor? I don't think I have a mentor. I have lots of

thought partners, slash mentors. And like many different spaces, I don't have you know, I know some people talk about like the, like, personal coach, personal mentor. I think there was like times when I was younger, when I was applying, like, work ethic, right? It wasn't like in a field or anything. I'm just like, how do I be a good professional? Right? What is it? What does a good professional look like? Well, I had like my godfather, who I really looked up to who is, you know, we're ideologically divergent in a lot of ways. But he would he was a true mentor in terms of he took me in, he gave me an internship at a spa, he's really successful goldman sachs and started some family office and, and just like, you know, just copying everything that dude did for a little while. In terms of habits, like that was one place where I was really weak. I felt like I had a lot of intellectual and creative energy, but I didn't know how to channel it, because I didn't have any routines, and any any habits whatsoever, you know, that allowed me to be successful. And so I thought success was like, these abstract ideas around discipline. Yeah. And then I got with them. I'm like, Oh, that's what you do. You set the alarm for five, then you work out first thing, then you write down the three things you need to accomplish today, thank you check your calendar, answer email, and you're, you're in the office by 730 at night, and then you have an hour and a half to work before anyone even comes in and talks to you. And I can't do that. I don't know if I can be as successful as you but I can. I can wake up then I can do that morning routine you do. And seems like a morning routine helps a hell of a lot with everything else you're doing. You know, and so, so when I was younger, I would say you know, this guy, Greg Alinsky, who's my godfather was it was a mentor of my and they kind of as I've taken on these different initiatives and gotten involved in all these different things, I have thought partners and mentors for like different silos, but not necessarily like overall in life. Alright, so

you're taking the mentor chip concept a little bit and spreading saying like, I know when I need help. Yeah. And and, and I seek out and I can find people that that have kind of like walked the path before me. Right in this specific area. Okay,

right. Yeah, exactly. I mean, of all the time. Yeah. Everything I do, and I need help with it. So I'm always I'm always doing

what's awesome. Okay. So, you know, we're getting to the last question here. And this is, this is an interesting one. So if you could go back in time, and you know, we talk about your 28 year old self and tell yourself one piece of advice, but what do you think it would be?

We touched on some of it, you know, I think we've touched on a lot of it already, which is Just transparency, you know, I have this mantra. Speaking of things, I need to get back to, like morning routine with mantras. But I'd say impact not ego. Which meant, like, you know, why are you doing this? Like everything you're doing today, you know, or even the company starting everything? Why are you doing it, and if it's for the result of this thing succeeding, you're in the right headspace. If it's so you can be on the front of ink magazine, you know, having some cover, whatever, whatever it is Fast Company, you know what I'm saying? Like things from the tech startup world, but whatever that is Sports Illustrated, you know, you're probably not going to make the right decision because you're not optimizing for success. you're optimizing for the optics of success, which is different, right? My co founder I told you about in the beginning of this, this guy, Effie brilliant guy, more startup experience for me, the moment I started struggling, and that startup, I should have turned CEO rollover Damn. You know, I was just clear, I need a few more few more cuts. Before I felt really comfortable in that seat, I need to be proximate to that energy. And that, that, you know, that hustle for maybe one more startup longer before I can do it really, really well. And, and he had to be humble, like a little more humble. And it was clear, you know, three months, four months in, yeah. And he was trying to guide me and I was treating him like a mentor. But I think if I was like, Look, the outcome we're going for is this outcome. Who's the best guy to lead that? I would have said, you know, he's the best guy. But I also wanted this to be my Zuckerberg moment. Right? Right, from being honest with myself, right? Shit, I'm on 2728 these guys just gave me a million bucks to go build this thing. You know, it's it's the heyday, Instagram just sold for a billion WhatsApp just sold for $20 billion a one this year do its thing in the world, which was help people help each other. I thought it was really beautiful. But I also wanted to be the Mark Zuckerberg of that thing. You know? And it felt like I was like, right, right, timing right place. I felt smart. I didn't feel I feel completely inadequate. Right. I think at the end of the day, that decision came from, from me being compromised as to like, what the what the mission was. Right? And there there was selfishness and ego in that mission mixed in with, you know, this really altruistic vision for what I wanted to create.

Yeah, I mean, that's, that's pretty powerful. Because if you think about it, it is one, if you can just be focused on like, I want my, the greatest impact here. And like, how do we get there? And that's like, you almost start with a blank slate every day. And you could say, Okay, look, we could start over and try this different thing, you know, like zero base this thing? That's, that's super powerful. Right. And that's a way to that's almost a way to live life. Right. And then I think the other side of the question, kind of going back to the actual question itself, is that, would you have taken the advice? Or do you need that experience to be who you are today?

That's really hard right? Now? I don't know. I don't know. Sometimes you do. Sometimes you don't, right. And the more the, the earlier, and this is like a this is really promoting that idea of trying to do things in the wild, the earlier you bump your head, the more receptive you are to, to folks wisdom later, right? You don't need to bump my head every time. I'm happy to learn from you. If you're saying, you know, you're out here and you did these things. And it was a problem, great, because it's painful, it sucks, sucks to fail, and it sucks to you know, fail due to reasons that weren't about, you know, you doing your best and you know, and so. So, you know, if I, if I could, you know, promote One idea is just get out into the wild as quickly as possible because you are more receptive to that's one of the other benefits you get, you're more receptive to other people's wisdom at you. You get rid of that myth about how awesome you are and and how awesome anyone is how often I like that, that people are just sitting in a room dreaming and stuff up without help. And there's certain people are born special, and you're maybe one of them. It's not our fault for believing that right? Like that's like every Marvel comic book movie, and everything is like someone finds out that deep inside they're actually like, you know, Robert Downey Jr. as Iron Man is like solving every equation instantaneously. Like, it doesn't matter what the field is. He's just smart and like, whatever. That's how things happen. And he goes to his basement and now like new things are created. It's just it's just a myth that's perpetuated on every level since childhood. And it's it's important to have those myths broken.

Yeah, I think it's funny because like he just like hit the nail on the head. Exactly. What we're trying to talk about here is that it's not just you as a matter of fact, like, you may be the glue to kind of pull this whole thing together but like the better you are at bringing other people and empowering them to be the best they can be is like the tipping point for a business to go from like, yeah, I'm gonna slug it out every day. Right to I actually have something that that can live on its own. Mm hmm. And I think that's I think that's cool man like you've, you know you've told the story, and I just can't can't thank you enough for spending the time with me. That concludes this week's show. Thanks for listening. Please leave a review on your favorite podcast platform or directly on the site. Your comments are truly appreciated, good, bad or indifferent, and we'll help make the show better. This is Jake Wiley with Wiley on business and we'll talk again two weeks